Phono Cartridge Loading
#1 Phono Cartridge Loading
Could one load a MC cartridge on the primary side of a step up transformer rather than on the secondary side? Is there any advantage in doing this and why, or is it better to do it in the conventional manner on the secondary?
©2020 Lee
#2
Hi Lee,
Do you get to the Witham meet in January this year? I did some experiments (I should say aided, abetted and encouraged by Nick) with primary loading and it was universally liked, at the time. However, some returned to secondary showing it had some of that "it makes a good demo" sort of sound. Gerry, Nick and Max liked it, NealG and Clive liked it at the time but went back to secondary loading later.
Yes, its possible, and it works and I like it, but I've come to think, due to various measurements and some of the maths becoming clearer in my head that the cart has a say in this equation as well.
What cart do you run as it might have a bearing? Either way, try it but its too forward for some, in other systems it opens the up.
cheers,
-- Andrew
Do you get to the Witham meet in January this year? I did some experiments (I should say aided, abetted and encouraged by Nick) with primary loading and it was universally liked, at the time. However, some returned to secondary showing it had some of that "it makes a good demo" sort of sound. Gerry, Nick and Max liked it, NealG and Clive liked it at the time but went back to secondary loading later.
Yes, its possible, and it works and I like it, but I've come to think, due to various measurements and some of the maths becoming clearer in my head that the cart has a say in this equation as well.
What cart do you run as it might have a bearing? Either way, try it but its too forward for some, in other systems it opens the up.
cheers,
-- Andrew
Last edited by Andrew on Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#5
Thanks Andrew.
Just read the thread at the other place. I really should use the search before asking questions. Not to worry. Thanks for the response anyway.
I will have a tinker when I get a new cart. Probably be a 103 for now as funds are a bit tight.
I will have a play when it arrives and see what I think.
Cheers all,
Just read the thread at the other place. I really should use the search before asking questions. Not to worry. Thanks for the response anyway.
I will have a tinker when I get a new cart. Probably be a 103 for now as funds are a bit tight.
I will have a play when it arrives and see what I think.
Cheers all,
©2020 Lee
#6
Just listening to the Denon DL103 on a damped Gray 108 unipivot and Goldring GL88 through a WAD PhonoII with Llundahl 9206 step-ups and 100R loading on the secondary. It's sounding quite good. Nice and detailed, but the first thing that struck me is how dry this cart sounds. It's as though the lower frequency range needs fleshing out. Mids sound good as do the highs. I am wondering if the step-ups could be causing this. Would running the Llundahls at 1:10 instead of 1:20 cause such problems? I have recently been using a G800 which is obviously less "hi-fi" (and a HO MM) but it sounded nice and full and lush bypassing the SU trafos and going straight into the phono amp. The 103 in comparison sounds a little anaemic in the bass dept.
Will changing to 1:20 just increase gain or would it improve things in other ways? I have not tried adding the load on the primaries yet either, but changing from a 510R load down to a 150R load and now to the recommended 100R load has improved things a touch, but still not massively. I appreciate that the cart will need a few hours to loosen up, but these things are normally noticeable "out of the box" and improve slightly.
Cheers
Will changing to 1:20 just increase gain or would it improve things in other ways? I have not tried adding the load on the primaries yet either, but changing from a 510R load down to a 150R load and now to the recommended 100R load has improved things a touch, but still not massively. I appreciate that the cart will need a few hours to loosen up, but these things are normally noticeable "out of the box" and improve slightly.
Cheers
©2020 Lee
#7
Hi Lee,
From what I know of others experience with the 103, my advice would be to try some more ohms on the 103, some say 500R is getting close. But I suspect there's more going on here. 103 bass is one of its best bits.
cheers,
-- Andrew
From what I know of others experience with the 103, my advice would be to try some more ohms on the 103, some say 500R is getting close. But I suspect there's more going on here. 103 bass is one of its best bits.
cheers,
-- Andrew
#8
Hi Andrew.
I have removed 510R and gone down to 100R. It seemed a little better to me. I will have another play later on or tomorrow. You are right in saying that something else could be going on. Maybe my punt that the 103 would be a good match for the Gray was wrong.
What I will do as well, is connect the cart in before the SU and see if it sounds any good like that with the volume cranked up. I know a couple of people actually use their carts like this.
I will also have a play with damping and VTF too.
Thanks
I have removed 510R and gone down to 100R. It seemed a little better to me. I will have another play later on or tomorrow. You are right in saying that something else could be going on. Maybe my punt that the 103 would be a good match for the Gray was wrong.
What I will do as well, is connect the cart in before the SU and see if it sounds any good like that with the volume cranked up. I know a couple of people actually use their carts like this.
I will also have a play with damping and VTF too.
Thanks
©2020 Lee
#9
Just put the 51k (510R) back in. Funnily enough, I seem to prefer this now. I had to lower the volume a touch too, so it is obviously providing more drive. The bass is a little more rounded also. It didn't sound this good when I first had 510R in. Maybe it was tight straight out of the box. It has still only got about 4 hours on it. I am so impatient !! 
What about going to 1:20 anyone??
What about going to 1:20 anyone??
©2020 Lee
#10
The 103's output is 40ohms so it needs to see about 150ohms on the SUT this would be your 1:10. Loading is recommended at more than 100ohms and I settled for 320ohms x8 of the output and used primary loading dont forget to change the 47k to 1meg in the phono amp.
This was the best I could get out of it.
This was the best I could get out of it.
#12
Hi Lee,
You may need some more mass in the headshell, for the 103 to work against, the tracking force is still the same, of course, just use the counterweight to re-balance up any extra mass you add to the shell.
cheers,
-- Andrew
You may need some more mass in the headshell, for the 103 to work against, the tracking force is still the same, of course, just use the counterweight to re-balance up any extra mass you add to the shell.
cheers,
-- Andrew
#13
Hi Andrew.
I am using a Gray Research 108. I have about 20g of mass in the cartridge mounting clip alone with the brass weight fitted and the arm itself is fairly high mass anyway. I wouldn't have thought it could be lack of mass, but I can always try adding more to the equation. Won't do any harm I guess.
To be honest, the more I am playing the 103, the more I am thinking that the bass is not only filling out a little with time, but that it maybe the fact that the cart I was using before had too much bass. It's compliance was a fair bit higher than the 103's so it was probably sounding loose, uncontrolled, wooly and overpowering in the Gray (it was temporary whilst waiting for the 103). I am thinking that after using that for the last 5 or 6 weeks I am now hearing better balanced bass. Tighter and more detailed bass that I thought was less.
I am going to faff with the primary loading later and see what that does and MAYBE try the SUs at 1:20. I will then leave it alone for a few weeks, get a few more hours on it and see how it goes.
Cheers
I am using a Gray Research 108. I have about 20g of mass in the cartridge mounting clip alone with the brass weight fitted and the arm itself is fairly high mass anyway. I wouldn't have thought it could be lack of mass, but I can always try adding more to the equation. Won't do any harm I guess.
To be honest, the more I am playing the 103, the more I am thinking that the bass is not only filling out a little with time, but that it maybe the fact that the cart I was using before had too much bass. It's compliance was a fair bit higher than the 103's so it was probably sounding loose, uncontrolled, wooly and overpowering in the Gray (it was temporary whilst waiting for the 103). I am thinking that after using that for the last 5 or 6 weeks I am now hearing better balanced bass. Tighter and more detailed bass that I thought was less.
I am going to faff with the primary loading later and see what that does and MAYBE try the SUs at 1:20. I will then leave it alone for a few weeks, get a few more hours on it and see how it goes.
Cheers
©2020 Lee
#14
Just taken out the 51k loads, replaced with 1M and slapped 333R across the input of the SU trafos. Couldn't be bothered going to Craplins so lashed up three 1Ks in parallel. Just listening now. Seems a touch more forward and lively. Sounds OK actually. We're getting there. None of this loading seems to have affected the bass response much.
Cheers
Cheers
©2020 Lee
#15
Lee
If you can add some damping to the arm, ala silicone, I would, This makes a big difference to the bass...fills it out and tightens it.
With my 103R I settled for 100R on the primary and 1M on the secondary.
I'm using Cinemag SU on 1:18.5, much better than the 1:9.12, so I would give the 1:20 a go.
Regards
Gerry
(All IMHO)
If you can add some damping to the arm, ala silicone, I would, This makes a big difference to the bass...fills it out and tightens it.
With my 103R I settled for 100R on the primary and 1M on the secondary.
I'm using Cinemag SU on 1:18.5, much better than the 1:9.12, so I would give the 1:20 a go.
Regards
Gerry
(All IMHO)