Nice clip

[PeteC]

now thats interesting Nick !

actually, though it looks much more bewildering at first glance, Modern Chord Progressions is the better book for any level of guitarist i reckon - thousands of diagrams but easy to just dip into to learn a quick progression.

I'm s...l...o...w...l...y working my way through Single Note Soloing vols 1&2 buy i think it will take the rest of my life to absorb about half of it !

Rgds
Pete

[Dave the bass]

....soloing...can't be that hard can it? ... c'mon...... 1 foot on the monitor and minor pentatonic widdling for the next 34 minutes innit?

Well, thats what I do on the bass on anyway

DTB

[Dave the bass]

Aside from Hendrix, Page and all the other 'classique guitar solos'...

...genuinely this is one of my fave guitar solo's ever, I like the way it's structured within the song with the Jordinaires setting him (Scotty Moore not Elvis of course, E.P's miming here) off with the word 'Go!' at 1.17 then at the end of that cracking solo they give a jazzeresque 'yeah!' at 1.34 when he's done.

I think it is Scotty's hands at around 1.20 but EP's pretending to play it.

Sorta Jazz goes RnR innit.

Another fave, listen to how he farts around with sounds at around 3.26 slowly winding up and up and up and up to breaking point then at 5.20 ish totally awesomely finishes and brings the band back into the Master Builder theme. I think it's 3 or 4 solo's constructed into 1 behemoth.

And another, ...this is what happens when I listen to this -> It has it's desired affect if the legend is true... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggot_Bra ... 9#Creation

DTB

[Nick]

Yep, agreed, especially about the Hillage solo, wonderful pacing. I have thought one of the skils of a great solo is taking your time. One of my all time fave is the guitar synth solo in this, from about 3:45 onwards. And its almost true to the flugal horn that its sounding like, until the last when it admits to having 6 strings.



What I find intriguing, is that in this text about what he thinks of Kenny G, he uses exactly the same construction, slowly building tension and release ramping up to the final.

Question:

Pat, could you tell us your opinion about Kenny G - it appears you were quoted as being less than enthusiastic about him and his music. I would say that most of the serious music listeners in the world would not find your opinion surprising or unlikely - but you were vocal about it for the first time. You are generally supportive of other musicians it seems.
Pat's Answer:

Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all until recently. There was not much about the way he played that interested me one way or the other either live or on records.

I first heard him a number of years ago playing as a sideman with Jeff Lorber when they opened a concert for my band. My impression was that he was someone who had spent a fair amount of time listening to the more pop oriented sax players of that time, like Grover Washington or David Sanborn, but was not really an advanced player, even in that style. He had major rhythmic problems and his harmonic and melodic vocabulary was extremely limited, mostly to pentatonic based and blues-lick derived patterns, and he basically exhibited only a rudimentary understanding of how to function as a professional soloist in an ensemble - Lorber was basically playing him off the bandstand in terms of actual music.

But he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of harmonic clams in them) at the key moments to elicit a powerful crowd reaction (over and over again). The other main thing I noticed was that he also, as he does to this day, played horribly out of tune - consistently sharp.

Of course, I am aware of what he has played since, the success it has had, and the controversy that has surrounded him among musicians and serious listeners. This controversy seems to be largely fueled by the fact that he sells an enormous amount of records while not being anywhere near a really great player in relation to the standards that have been set on his instrument over the past sixty or seventy years. And honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially, especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisors and musicians in general have trouble just making a living. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are simply better improvising musicians than Kenny G on his chosen instruments. It would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that statement.

Having said that, it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz musicians (myself included, given the right "bait" of a question, as I will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what he is playing is not even jazz at all. Stepping back for a minute, if we examine the way he plays, especially if one can remove the actual improvising from the often mundane background environment that it is delivered in, we see that his saxophone style is in fact clearly in the tradition of the kind of playing that most reasonably objective listeners WOULD normally quantify as being jazz. It's just that as jazz or even as music in a general sense, with these standards in mind, it is simply not up to the level of playing that we historically associate with professional improvising musicians. So, lately I have been advocating that we go ahead and just include it under the word jazz - since pretty much of the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the jazz community does anyway - and let the chips fall where they may.

And after all, why he should be judged by any other standard, why he should be exempt from that that all other serious musicians on his instrument are judged by if they attempt to use their abilities in an improvisational context playing with a rhythm section as he does? He SHOULD be compared to John Coltrane or Wayne Shorter, for instance, on his abilities (or lack thereof) to play the soprano saxophone and his success (or lack thereof) at finding a way to deploy that instrument in an ensemble in order to accurately gauge his abilities and put them in the context of his instrument's legacy and potential.

As a composer of even eighth note based music, he SHOULD be compared to Herbie Hancock, Horace Silver or even Grover Washington. Suffice it to say, on all above counts, at this point in his development, he wouldn't fare well.

But, like I said at the top, this relatively benign view was all "until recently".

Not long ago, Kenny G put out a recording where he overdubbed himself on top of a 30+ year old Louis Armstrong record, the track "What a Wonderful World". With this single move, Kenny G became one of the few people on earth I can say that I really can't use at all - as a man, for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most important figure in our music.

This type of musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the preexisting tracks of already dead performers - was weird when Natalie Cole did it with her dad on "Unforgettable" a few years ago, but it was her dad. When Tony Bennett did it with Billie Holiday it was bizarre, but we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th century who were on roughly the same level of artistic accomplishment. When Larry Coryell presumed to overdub himself on top of a Wes Montgomery track, I lost a lot of the respect that I ever had for him - and I have to seriously question the fact that I did have respect for someone who could turn out to have such unbelievably bad taste and be that disrespectful to one of my personal heroes.

But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. By disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can be, Kenny G has created a new low point in modern culture - something that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. We ignore this, "let it slide", at our own peril.

His callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring.

Since that record came out - in protest, as insignificant as it may be, I encourage everyone to boycott Kenny G recordings, concerts and anything he is associated with. If asked about Kenny G, I will diss him and his music with the same passion that is in evidence in this little essay.

Normally, I feel that musicians all have a hard enough time, regardless of their level, just trying to play good and don't really benefit from public criticism, particularly from their fellow players. but, this is different.

There ARE some things that are sacred - and amongst any musician that has ever attempted to address jazz at even the most basic of levels, Louis Armstrong and his music is hallowed ground. To ignore this trespass is to agree that NOTHING any musician has attempted to do with their life in music has any intrinsic value - and I refuse to do that. (I am also amazed that there HASN'T already been an outcry against this among music critics - where ARE they on this?????!?!?!?!, magazines, etc.). Everything I said here is exactly the same as what I would say to Gorelick if I ever saw him in person. and if I ever DO see him anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a guitar wrapped around his head.)

Back to Ted Greene, what the book Chord Chemistry opened up to me was (other than how much I didnt know and there was to know) was that there was so much more than simple single note playing.



There is a part 2

[PeteC]

Dave,

thanks for sharing - v nice to be introduced to some stuff I'd never heard before......I'll be forwarding those to me geetar playin' mates too.

I'm going thru a phase of trying to find some "new" stuff to listen to so this is great. Just been exposed to the Captain Beyond Albums which I'm liking , as well as some old Tommy Bolin stuff too.

As far as widdly - widdly soloing goes....The pentatonic stuff I'm fine with, its working the melodic minor stuff into my blues playing which is going to take some serious time....

PS - just narrowly avoided a major accident here....just been up in attic and dropped a Tektronix 465 scope ( which nice neighbour kindly donated to me ) down the loft ladder and nearly killed the missus

amazing thing is it still works ( the scope that is...)

Rgds
Pete

[PeteC]

Nick

"Back to Ted Greene, what the book Chord Chemistry opened up to me was (other than how much I didnt know and there was to know) was that there was so much more than simple single note playing"

Its all good, chords and solos - and I like most where the 2 thing merge into one another - epitomised in Little Wing and Bold as Love, and some of Townsend's playing.


Nick - if you like that Metheny solo ( and I certainly do ! ) - do you have Sixteen Men of Tain by Holdsworth ? - if not you are in for a treat. Cant recall which track but there is a superb guitar synth solo on there on one of the slower tracks.

Rgds
Pete

[Dave the bass]

"Since that record came out - in protest, as insignificant as it may be, I encourage everyone to boycott Kenny G recordings, concerts and anything he is associated with. If asked about Kenny G, I will diss him and his music with the same passion that is in evidence in this little essay."

Ooooof!

Sorry for delay in this thread, been busy building. Now our Pat seems like a level headed fella but boy is he irked!

A guitarist I used to live with was bonkers on studying and Ted Greene, he was 'schooled' at Berkley (sp?) and was good player and could solo in 'styles' but he wasn't ever 'himself' if YKWIM.

I just played for money with him but did a bit of studying at Goldsmiths College in Lundun Village (by the town hall).

Lets go the down the clip route of no schoolin' and just being a natural...
I give you...

DTB

[Nick]

Yep, agreed, book learning isn't any any alternative to natural talent, but in a few cases its not one or other, but both.

Pete, yep, I have known of Holdsworth for many years, sometimes I can hear too much of him, then come back after some months and enjoy his stuff all over again.

[floppybootstomp]

Hmm, don't know where to start or even how to voice myself really.

Is that the same John McLaughlin who was part of the Mahavishnu Orchestra and got religion for a while along with Carlos Santana? My goodness.

Muso stuff. To me, some sublime, others either pretentious or very clever, not sure which. Regardless of which I ask myself 'Is it entertaining?'

If it doesn't move me I will move on.

The first clip with a link in this thread, incidentally, is the only one I've watched so far.

I watch, I listen, I doubt myself. Am I a philistine for not liking this stuff?

Should that question even concern me? No, I can't apreciate some music but if I don't enjoy it why should I even care?

I did admire the musical virtuosity even if it did have about the same appeal as watching paint dry. Sorry.

Some time ago DTB lent me what I think was the first album by Weather Report which I commited to cassette and probably still have somewhere.

This was late 80's/early 90's and I was somewhat miffed to realise this one had passed me by in the seventies.

I was impressed and played this thing to death. I have it stored in mp3 form now on the media machine.

Apart from Birdland the one track that moved me a great deal was 'A Remark You Made' I love it.

I like that but Pork Pie Hat thingie left me cold.

I am not a muso. I tried for almost ten years to play guitar and realised that it wasn't ever going to come natural to me, the only way I'd learn to play proficiently would be endless and constant practice and that even then I doubted if anything would ever flow spontaneously, probably just play to order, somewhat like most Orchestra members. Cold cold cold.

So I gave up and gave the guitar to a friend. I don't know what make the guitar was but most musos I knew said it sounded nice and said friend was happy to receive it. Good. I bought it from a junk shop somehwere, possibly at Dungeness, can't be sure.

Anyhow, Nick, thanks for posting, it's good to be stimulated.

And Dave, thanks for the intro to Weather Report.

[Nick]

Yep, "A Remark" is a wonderful thing, still think its on the top of my list of music I would like to be played at my funeral (and I mean that in a good way).

Don't know if JMcL ever "ungot" religion, not sure it matters, but I do think his spiritual beliefs are very interconnected with his musical voice.

Maybe try the Pork Pie at the end of Joni Mitchells Mingus for a different though connected version.

I haven't met you yet floppy, hope I do sometime, but without wishing to (though not worrying if I do) offend, I have to ask what the point of your post is? Ok, there is music you like, and music you don't, think thats the same for every one of us, but if someone likes something you don't, you are not in any way diminished, its not a competition to like "clever, muso" music.

"I did admire the musical virtuosity even if it did have about the same appeal as watching paint dry. Sorry. "

Why be sorry? My enjoyment (with the emphasis on joy) of that clip, and the LP from the same tour needs no validation from others, and is not altered but your equally valid response to it. I am in a way sorry, that you can't get the same pleasure from it I do, but then I expect there are equivalent pieces that rock your boat that leave me cold.

Positive thoughts lead to good things I find, enhance your calm

[PeteC]

there's always Jeff's Pork Pie Hat of course......

i do think the combination of natural talent and schooling can bring out the best in players though.

having said that a couple of my absolute fav players are fully self taught - Robben Ford and Blackmore.

Ford - like Larry Carlton - has the ability to take a genre ( blues ) that has been done to death by legions of frenzied pentatonic guitar players and put fresh jazzy hues all over it. His softer stuff I'm not mad keen on but his heavier jazzy blues is incredible. Take a lsten to the two solos in Worred Life Blues for a taste of some of the best blues single line playng ever IMHO. Bonamassa is good - and streets ahead of most of the other "blues" players but probably not in Robbens league for improv. I've seen Ford 4 times and he's knockout live - its so spontaneous - I just wish he'd record more stuff.

Carlton I go thru stages with - some days I like him - others I wish he hadnt churned out so much bland stuff. On a good day he's one of the best IMO.

having said al that I just get floored by good drummers - I'd love to be able play the drums. Dennis Chambers is just amazing.

on a completely different note - just been listening to Joni Mitchells Taming the Tiger - and Love Puts on a New Face is a superb track for late night SE amp listening i think.

I've never liked Kenny G though.....

cheers all

Pete

[Dave the bass]

Joni's Pork Pie... phwooooaarrr... Jaco, Pat, Lyle, Joni etc ... awethumn...

My fave natural blues player... songwriter not soloist, sorry for thread drift. One of my fave Blues soloists...

I think our Will likes him a 'a bit' too

DTB

[floppybootstomp]

I haven't met you yet floppy, hope I do sometime, but without wishing to (though not worrying if I do) offend, I have to ask what the point of your post is?

I'm far from offended

What's the point of my post? Lemme see, you posted a clip to share with others and I commented on it, is all.

Maybe I did tend to prattle on a bit but that's my way.

Can there actually be any point in responding to such a thread? I took the view that the idea was to comment and converse which I figure I did.

By prompting opinions one is bound to get some drivel

And I am calm now. I wasn't for quite some time but things could certainly be a lot worse, I do apreciate this.

Thanks for replying to my post

[Dave the bass]

Glad you liked the Weather Report stuff Tony, there's some good stuff out there.

t
having said al that I just get floored by good drummers - I'd love to be able play the drums. Dennis Chambers is just amazing.
Pete

Agreed DC is fab.

One of the most 'musical' drummers I've heard and seen is Jason Finn, from 'The Presidents of the USA'. The other instruments only have 5 strings between them so Jason's parts really show through.

He drums songs, not drums drums IYKWIM.

e.g. and

DTB

[IslandPink]

Every week someone gives me a new idea of things to look for on YouTube !
Thanks Nick .