This years systems

Subjects that don't have their own home
User avatar
Ali Tait
Eternally single
Posts: 4373
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:10 pm
Location: Galashiels

#16 Re: This years systems

Post by Ali Tait »

Ant wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:53 pm
Ali Tait wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:39 pm and all the other shite I seem to have accumulated. :D
Y'sound like me :D
Except i have room fulls instead of van loads
Well I have two rooms at the storage place. :D
User avatar
Ali Tait
Eternally single
Posts: 4373
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:10 pm
Location: Galashiels

#17 Re: This years systems

Post by Ali Tait »

JohnG wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:58 pm Ali
Them Old OB's once enchanted me, they will be a treat once dusted off and singing again.
Will have to give them a go John, not heard them in over three years. Suspect I’ll still prefer the Bastanis though.
simon
Thermionic Monk Status
Posts: 5600
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:22 am
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire

#18 Re: This years systems

Post by simon »

Nick wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:57 am But with 65v on the anodes and CCS loads, more than enough for a phono.
Yep :-)
JohnG
Old Hand
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:59 am

#19 Re: This years systems

Post by JohnG »

I am still going with the intention of producing a Passive OB.
I have the Drivers, the Baffle Materials some info for the Xovers from a few different helpful souls.

There is a friend in the wings with a Measuring Set Up to help with some of the stuff I know nothing off.

The idea that the Bastini's will be a hard act to follow is off interest 'Active or Passive' ?
chris661
Shed dweller
Posts: 2556
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:29 am
Location: Sheffield

#20 Re: This years systems

Post by chris661 »

Ant wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:57 pm
I dont know why more people dont look at the big fane drivers
I can think of a few reasons.

I bought a pair of the 15"s a while ago, to have a play around with. The hope was that they'd be useful in a very-compact stage monitor cabinet, but I was curious from a HiFi point of view, too. An old-fashioned radiogram would've been a cool project, for example.
I put them in a pair of 15" subwoofer cabinets, with the ports blocked. Works out around 100L sealed.

The negatives I noted are these:
- The Qts is much too high to work in a reasonable-sized box. I saw online someone had reduced the Qts of a driver by adding extra neodymium magnets to the existing ferrite. Something like 0.4 to 0.29. So, I gave that a go and even with a lot of neo magnets, the Qts got down to about 0.95. That's okay-ish if you're happy with a large sealed (or "leaky") box, but I wanted compact and ported. No dice - worked out as a +6dB spike in the 180Hz range, and falling rapidly below that. EQing back to level would mean a lot of power.

- The kHz range was problematic in that 1) it wasn't particularly flat or smooth and 2) it varied quite a lot as you move off-axis. Peaks and dips would change in frequency as I moved the mic around, so this wasn't fixable with EQ, except for the really broad strokes. It's possible that there are solutions to this, including putting foam between the whizzer cone(s), but I didn't investigate further.

- The motor is too basic to cope with prolonged high-power inputs. I've had Fane's Sov. Pro 12-500 drivers lose 6dB of sensitivity due to thermal build-up. Not a problem for HiFi use, but would be an issue for PA use. Musician tells me their monitor's a bit quiet. Turn it up, and a few minutes later it'll probably stop working. Modern motor designs deal with heat much more efficiently - they'll typically have vents in the back plate, beneath the spider, and the pole vent.

As a result, I went back to the drawing board and found Faital Pro's 10HX230 drivers, which are much better suited to my intended use case.

Now, that doesn't mean the Fane triple cones are crap. They have their up-sides, including the simplicity of the implementation, excellent phase response (no crossovers), and high sensitivity. For me, they're on the bright side for on-axis listening and I'd want to either stay off-axis or implement a broad notch filter to balance things more to my taste. If you like them, though, I have no problem with that.



More on-topic with the thread, I've kept my current speakers for about a year now, which is a serious achievement. If I'm at home (most of the time I am), I'll have music on for 10 hours a day, and the HiFi will also get used for Netflix etc in an evening. Its easy to use and sounds great.
I'm planning on changing the amplifier as the use cases have shifted and it needs to support a new set of inputs.

Chris
steve s
Shed dweller
Posts: 2829
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 6:19 pm
Location: east yorks

#21 Re: This years systems

Post by steve s »

I suppose its horses for courses Chris I must say I've heard Steve's 12" version a few times at my house and Anthony's 15"s once.
They sound alot better after an extended running period... years ?
And off axis listening is a pre requisite
Fantastic sound in my view , but again not more than 5 watts required for home listening...so as you say not in pa use territory.
Me I'd put a good tweeter on top but thats over an over complication they dont need once run in.
The tube manual is quite like a telephone book. The number of it perfect. It is useful to make it possible to speak with a girl. But we can't see her beautiful face from the telephone number
User avatar
Ali Tait
Eternally single
Posts: 4373
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:10 pm
Location: Galashiels

#22 Re: This years systems

Post by Ali Tait »

JohnG wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:55 pm I am still going with the intention of producing a Passive OB.
I have the Drivers, the Baffle Materials some info for the Xovers from a few different helpful souls.

There is a friend in the wings with a Measuring Set Up to help with some of the stuff I know nothing off.

The idea that the Bastini's will be a hard act to follow is off interest 'Active or Passive' ?
The 18” is run with DSP for the crossover set at 200hz, and a little tweaking at the bottom end to compensate for the lack of baffle. The 12” is run wide open, some doping and discs stuck on make for a mechanical crossover which measurements showed worked well. Tweeter is run with a simple first order cap in series. Thanks to Marks’ measurements this was tweaked to give a much better match to the 12” driver.
User avatar
Nick
Site Admin
Posts: 15706
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 10:20 am
Location: West Yorkshire

#23 Re: This years systems

Post by Nick »

Musician tells me their monitor's a bit quiet.
I thought it was all in ear now?

I don't know, just asking. I have never been on a stage big enough to not hear everyone else anyway.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
Ant
Shed dweller
Posts: 2332
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:45 pm
Location: Yorkshire

#24 Re: This years systems

Post by Ant »

Youre bang on right with the downsides on the big fanes chris.

The box has to be huge to get what we want from them, these are i think, about 120l. Although its a large box, being flat back to the wall with an inch gap behind them means they arent as bad as they could be.
Ive seen bigger baffles and horns
On axis they can be ear bleeders, although that has reduced alot since they were new. Quite why that should be though im not sure as you would not have thought break in would affect the wizzers, unless its because the surrounds are relatively stiff and the break in has smoothed the response out marginally. Off axis is the way to go.

Break in for some reason has taken 2 years which is quite frankly just stupid. Perhaps because they are supposed to be running at much higher power in a wedge or a stack rather than having a watt up them in a living room......

I have no toe in at all, they are just flat to the wall, and the driver centre is lower than ear height by about a foot, so im off axis all the time. The opposite of most conventional wisdom, to have the hf at ear height and pointing at you. They would be (and were) bloody awful positioned like that.

I tuned the cabs with abit of wool fill in the bottom, to get the bass response i wanted, despite the big driver they aint piledrivers, but they are nice and linear up and down after much faffing

They do beam, so you do have to be in the right place for them to snap in, the window for this is not very big.
Power handling isnt a concern for me, but definitely is for your application

So they are definitely not fit and forget. they have taken a lot of tweaking and messing with, and its taken 2 years to get them where they are, and you do have to just accept their failings and work around them

But its definitely nice to see that someone has actually tried them and come to their own conclusions rather than looking at an fr plot and spec sheet then not bothering :D
Also starring Rex Hamilton as Abraham Lincoln

www.bte-designs.weebly.com
Cressy Snr
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 10552
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 12:25 am
Location: South Yorks.

#25 Re: This years systems

Post by Cressy Snr »

I would concur with our Ant. My 12in versions have also taken 2 years to break in. They’re also in big boxes.
The first time I had them at Steve’s, when they were relatively new, they were ear bleeding on some records.
I took them to Owston, they were slightly less ear bleeding. The following Owston, they were only very slightly ear bleeding.
Now they sound marvellous.

The 2 year break-in period for low powered hi-fi use, is not good. Nobody is going to put up with that. However they’re not meant for hi-fi and Fane make no claims that they are. It’s a pity, as when they do eventually run in, there’s not much in the single driver universe that can beat them.
Sgt. Baker started talkin’ with a Bullhorn in his hand.
chris661
Shed dweller
Posts: 2556
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:29 am
Location: Sheffield

#26 Re: This years systems

Post by chris661 »

Nick wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:06 pm
Musician tells me their monitor's a bit quiet.
I thought it was all in ear now?

I don't know, just asking. I have never been on a stage big enough to not hear everyone else anyway.
Always happy to talk about PA stuff.

The higher-end gigs, or ones where it's just one act playing, are usually in-ears.
However, my bread-and-butter events are (were, pre-Covid-19) 5-10x acts in a day. 45 mins on, 15 mins turnaround. Wedges make changeovers much quicker and easier.


Back to the Fanes for a moment, if anyone wants them subject to a 100-hour accelerated break-in (featuring multi-kilowatt peaks!), you know where I am.

Chris
vinylnvalves
Old Hand
Posts: 1074
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:08 pm

#27 Re: This years systems

Post by vinylnvalves »

This discussion of breaking in PA drivers got me thinking. I bought a pair of Beyma 12p80nd drivers.. after a lot of folks on DIYAudio were claiming wonderful things about them to see if I could replace the midrange horns. I tried them for about 20hrs, found them flat and lifeless. Maybe I need to get them out of cupboard and work them a bit to see if they improve.
Ant
Shed dweller
Posts: 2332
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:45 pm
Location: Yorkshire

#28 Re: This years systems

Post by Ant »

If they are anything like the fanes they will want thrashing for ever and a day...
I seem to remember that fostex drivers such as the fe124 needed a good thrashing.
But i may be wrong
Also starring Rex Hamilton as Abraham Lincoln

www.bte-designs.weebly.com
vinylnvalves
Old Hand
Posts: 1074
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:08 pm

#29 Re: This years systems

Post by vinylnvalves »

Except for the AMT’s the only drivers I have been the first owner for, so normally get them already bedded in (and cheaper of course) I think the doped surrounds on PA drivers do need some working, I remember redistributing the goop on Altec drivers to get the Fs down. Could be why most “HIFI” drivers have foam or rubber surrounds.... Not sure where I will work 100db eff drivers at home without upsetting the family and the neighbours :wink:
User avatar
pre65
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 21373
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: North Essex/Suffolk border.

#30 Re: This years systems

Post by pre65 »

vinylnvalves wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:39 pm Not sure where I will work 100db eff drivers at home without upsetting the family and the neighbours :wink:
I think that putting them close together (cone facing cone) and wiring them out of phase is the way.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
Post Reply