Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

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jack
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#106 Re: Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

Post by jack »

Sign up now. Big section on this on this morning's Today program..

Clinical trial to investigate whether vitamin D protects against COVID-19

https://www.qmul.ac.uk/iphs/news/items/ ... id-19.html
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#107 Re: Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

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just one thing stuck in my simple mind. one trial alreday performed found of people who took vit d 2% needed itu support of those in the control group 50% required itu. No need to join any trials, case proven for me. If I join a trial i might be put in the control group and die.

The only reason we have to discuss this matter is because noone can get richer by promoting a drug that is cheap to produce and has no patent protection.
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#108 Re: Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

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Paul Barker wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:08 am just one thing stuck in my simple mind. one trial alreday performed found of people who took vit d 2% needed itu support of those in the control group 50% required itu. No need to join any trials, case proven for me. If I join a trial i might be put in the control group and die.

The only reason we have to discuss this matter is because noone can get richer by promoting a drug that is cheap to produce and has no patent protection.
Which trial are you referring to? There was a very small French or Spanish one which I'm aware of, but that was a very small sample at a single hospital. Whilst good circumstantial evidence, it certainly wouldn't pass as a rigorous scientific trial - basically, it's a instigator for future work.

QMU are starting a full 5,000-person trial - a very different beast.

The object is not to convince you, that'd be singing to the choir, it's to get hard, peer-reviewed, evidence, which if it stands up will convince the more conservative and risk-adverse institutions to take Vitamin D seriously in this context (note italics).

I can't do this trial as they state: "Any UK resident aged 16 or more can participate if they are not already taking high-dose vitamin D" - I already take D3 daily.
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#109 Re: Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

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its mentioned in a very long winded utube if you have enough will to live to watch it all.[youtube][/youtube] you can get a years supply if you think 4000 iu a day is sufficient for £9 give or take. The study I referr to means youre 25 times more likely to need itu support if you have covid and dont take vit d3. I can link you to 360 doses for less than a tenner on amazon or ebay whichever is youre poison. I wont use amazon. Most people seem to link to amazon these days so I just searhc ebay for what they link and buy it there. But Im sure you have enough search engine finger strength to find it yourself.
Last edited by Paul Barker on Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#110 Re: Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

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Paul Barker wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:38 am its mentioned in a very long winded utube if you have enough will to live to watch it all.[youtube][/youtube] you can get a years supply if you think 4000 iu a day is sufficient for £9 give or take.
Yep - seen that before - it's the trial I mentioned - only 76 patients at a single hospital in Spain: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7456194/

It's a very interesting trial but way way off being a definitive proof. The sample size is absolutely tiny, all the patients had already presented at hospital (a single hospital), and their own conclusions are:
Our pilot study demonstrated that administration of a high dose of Calcifediol or 25-hydroxyvitamin D, a main metabolite of vitamin D endocrine system, significantly reduced the need for ICU treatment of patients requiring hospitalization due to proven COVID-19. Calcifediol seems to be able to reduce severity of the disease, but larger trials with groups properly matched will be required to show a definitive answer.
(my italics)
Last edited by jack on Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#111 Re: Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

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jack wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:45 am
Paul Barker wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:38 am its mentioned in a very long winded utube if you have enough will to live to watch it all.[youtube][/youtube] you can get a years supply if you think 4000 iu a day is sufficient for £9 give or take.
Yep - seen that before - it's the trial I mentioned - only 76 patients at a single hospital: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7456194/

It's a very interesting trial but way way off being a definitive proof. The sample size is absolutely tiny, all the patients had already presented at hospital, and their own conclusions are:
Our pilot study demonstrated that administration of a high dose of Calcifediol or 25-hydroxyvitamin D, a main metabolite of vitamin D endocrine system, significantly reduced the need for ICU treatment of patients requiring hospitalization due to proven COVID-19. Calcifediol seems to be able to reduce severity of the disease, but larger trials with groups properly matched will be required to show a definitive answer.
(my italics)
well you sit and wait or participate in trials, ill just take it and spend my life absorbed in something else thanks.
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#112 Re: Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

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Paul Barker wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:47 am well you sit and wait or participate in trials, ill just take it and spend my life absorbed in something else thanks.
Not at all sure why you are having a bit of a grump at this. Most here (myself included) already take D3 just in case... Noone here is waiting on this trial, or indeed can probably take part in it (as they mostly already take D3 and are thus excluded).

A full clinical trial is in everyone's interests... especially maybe those that aren't already prophylactically taking D3.
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#113 Re: Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

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jack wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:50 am
Paul Barker wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:47 am well you sit and wait or participate in trials, ill just take it and spend my life absorbed in something else thanks.
Not at all sure why you are having a bit of a grump at this. Most here (myself included) already take D3 just in case... Noone here is waiting on this trial, or indeed can probably take part in it (as they mostly already take D3 and are thus excluded).

A full clinical trial is in everyone's interests... especially maybe those that aren't already prophylactically taking D3.
im not grumpy, im stating in plain and simple language where I am. you do as you please.
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#114 Re: Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

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im not grumpy, im stating in plain and simple language where I am. you do as you please.
Lots of people believe in lots of things. This is trying to provide evidence for one of those beliefs. Which is only a good thing IMHO. I believe that science is a good thing, and I think the evidence backs up that belief. This trial is part of how science is done. And Nick (Jack) posting this here is entirely on topic.

Sometimes its not about you (or me), sometimes it can just be information.
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#115 Re: Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

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Very good news they are going to look into this more seriously. About time, too !
jack wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:32 am Which trial are you referring to? There was a very small French or Spanish one which I'm aware of, but that was a very small sample at a single hospital. Whilst good circumstantial evidence, it certainly wouldn't pass as a rigorous scientific trial
I think you are downplaying the significance of this (Spanish) study. I know it was only 76 patients, but it was randomised, double-blind and published in a respected peer-reviewed journal. That sounds like rigorous science to me. The P value of 0.001 indicates a 1000 to 1 chance of the results being by chance.
Clearly it doesn't prove that taking vit D orally in the general population is efficacious, but it goes a long way towards that.
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#116 Re: Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

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I believe I addressed all that in the following post.

The researchers' own view is that their work was a pilot study only and much larger trials were needed for a definitive answer.

It really doesn't matter about the probability in this trial - the sample size is way way too small, the patients were already in hospital. They come from one region in one country. We don't know anything about their social status, diet, ethnicity, gender or age, or indeed even what comorbidities they had.

With a sample size that small you have only a tiny chance of the participants being truely representative of even that region's population, let alone Europe as a whole.
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#117 Re: Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

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I just don't accept your arguments, I'm sorry.
Ps. establishing the RDA for most vitamins has not required clinical trials, as far as I'm aware. It's just the way medicine has gone in recent decades, that we have to treat this as if it's a drug.
Meanwhile thousands of people will die unnecessarily this winter.
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#118 Re: Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

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Well, AFAIK RDA is determined by comparing with normal body levels. No one is being prevented from taking supplements, and national coverage is providing information, PHE already recommenced supplements, but to know the effectiveness of larger doses I don't think its unreasonable to look for data. I guess the earlier trial doesn't cover the population outside hospital. What if (for example) a higher dose of D increased the chances of having to go to hospital, but once in hospital a higher dose reduces the mortality rate. The previous study would not see that. And if a higher dose was effective, how high is higher, is there a optimal dose? if there is, are there other factors that alter what that dose is from person to person? I think that’s why its being investigated in the same way a drug is.
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#119 Re: Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

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Nick wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:31 pm Well, AFAIK RDA is determined by comparing with normal body levels. No one is being prevented from taking supplements, and national coverage is providing information, PHE already recommenced supplements, but to know the effectiveness of larger doses I don't think its unreasonable to look for data. I guess the earlier trial doesn't cover the population outside hospital. What if (for example) a higher dose of D increased the chances of having to go to hospital, but once in hospital a higher dose reduces the mortality rate. The previous study would not see that. And if a higher dose was effective, how high is higher, is there a optimal dose? if there is, are there other factors that alter what that dose is from person to person? I think that’s why its being investigated in the same way a drug is.
Not to forget that the trial was in Córdoba in Andalusia, southern Spain, which has the highest average summer day temperature in Europe - average highs of around 37C in July and August! So that's a representative sample then!

Who knows what levels are appropriate for those in Northern climes, like Dartford, or God forbid, North of the Thames...
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#120 Re: Some thoughts on Vitamin D, flu, etc

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Temperature has no proven link to Vitamin D levels, Nick. It's all about UV-B. Diet will help but is rarely enough.
It's known that many people in hot sunny countries like Spain and the Middle East rarely go out in the sun, especially in the middle of the day, so are vitamin D deficient as a result. I think there was a study cited about this in Spain by John Campbell in one of his vlogs.
I'm not complaining about scientists behaving as scientists and applying their conventional disclaimers, being rigorous ( for scientific and I guess these days legal reasons ) about the limits of what a study shows. But a study like this does not exist in a vacuum. It's the job of public health professionals to join the dots, but also balance risk of action against the risks ( massive, in this case ) if inaction. Only someone whose head was buried in the sand could say that vit D is not relevant , given what's been studied recently. We are in the middle of a global emergency, and time is critical. On that basis, why are Public health England not even pointing out to people that they should be taking 400iu per day in the Winter months ? How about a Public Information Film for god's sake.
That is their RDA for everyone in the UK.
Their recommendation for black and asian people is 400iu per day throughout the year.
They recommend this because its been found that black and asian people are more likely to be deficient when they're tested.
Despite this, they somehow forgot to include Vitamin D levels on the list of topics to investigate as part of their urgent report into why more 'BAME' people are dying from Covid. It just beggars belief. I can still see the look of utter contempt on John Campbell's face when he explained this on one of his videos.
If they could at least make it widely known that this level is completely safe, and highly recommended, then we could get people's levels up to near the minimum healthy level ( in the UK, not elsewhere in the world ! ) and many of the critical cases and deaths from Covid could be avoided.

Vitamin D has been known about for nearly 100 years. There is a wealth of evidence about what is an efficacious dose, and what is a dangerous dose, from epidemiology, case histories and experiments, as Vieth has demonstrated elegantly in his papers dating back to 20 years ago.
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