General Raspberry Pi stuff

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#166 Re: General Raspberry Pi stuff

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Arduino IDE as from a professional standpoint it's very limited
I agree with you on that, though I question the whole Arduino thing not just its IDE. But thats just me I guess. Avr Libc is just fine IMHO.
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#167 Re: General Raspberry Pi stuff

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and there was me thinking Arduino was a hobby enterprise.....I was naive enough to think nobody would criticise it from a professional standpoint...

just goes to show, mea culpa.

snigg...oh hang on
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#168 Re: General Raspberry Pi stuff

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Arduino was a hobby enterprise
Yep, but given there is no real downside, why not take it to the next level. Hobbyists can still be serious about stuff and want to do it as well as possible.

AFAIK (and I haven’t spent much time with it), the main thing about Arduino is the usb bootloader. given you can buy a AVR programmer for a couple of quid, the moment you want to make your own boards with built in processors Arduino becomes a handicap rather than an aid.

I find it ironic that (first one I looked at) for example a Arduino Nano Every for £9.64 contains a ATMEGA4809-AU which is £1.32, and also happens to contain a ARM Cortex M0+ that’s there just to be the USB to serial converter.
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#169 Re: General Raspberry Pi stuff

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Not a critique of the Arduino IDE, just that if you are or have been a professional developer, the IDE is at best weak and at worst, completely pants. And there are a lot of professional developers who have played with the Arduino concept. The main thing is that you don't have to use their IDE, you can use a more capable framework like Eclipse...

I agree with t'other Nick about the architectural constraints.

Just for the hell of it, I read up about the history of the Arduino... Talk about messy!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arduino
ed wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:40 pm and there was me thinking Arduino was a hobby enterprise...
Originally, it never was for hobbyists - it was for non-engineers at an Italian university.
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#170 Re: General Raspberry Pi stuff

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yeah I guess discussions like this could go on for ever....

I get caught in the soc discussions against my better judgement.....I started SOC with Atmel studio strictly in assembler using my dragon but when I realised there were libraries for things like pressure guages and light detectors and sd cards and all manor of screens, it wasn't difficlult to try Arduino.

So now I sometimes write c++ in Arduino Ide(with the arduino libraries) and upload to atmel chips via the dragon...bootloader be damned!

It's just how I've rolled, probably the easiest route, not necessarily the best.... and then there's the ESP32s..just plug them into the ide...they just work, and to me I don't give a hoot about the professionalism of it all.

The reason I keep challenging Nick DeSmiths posts is simply because he keeps raising the 'Professional' argument...and the way he writes them comes across to me as if he thinks he's the only one.....Sorry Nick, I'm sure it's not the case but that's just how it seems to me.
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#171 Re: General Raspberry Pi stuff

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ed wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:26 pm yThe reason I keep challenging Nick DeSmiths posts is simply because he keeps raising the 'Professional' argument...and the way he writes them comes across to me as if he thinks he's the only one.....Sorry Nick, I'm sure it's not the case but that's just how it seems to me.
Apologies - not the intention... well aware there are others here...

The "professional" vs. "hobbyist" division is really about how you approach s/w development and not an elitist distinction, IMHO. A typical hobbyist won't give two hoots about anything other than getting their stuff to work.

Someone who has earnt their daily crust doing development will typically expect a lot more, even if doing a small hack in the workshop. Using one example: Git integration or other version control system. Also code verifiers, more sophisticated debuggers, IDE configuration etc. etc.

Amazingly, not everything is a criticism - simple is good for many things, but expectations and patterns of work vary.
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#172 Re: General Raspberry Pi stuff

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I think this covers a lot of the points mentioned, and i certainly relate to the Arduino as a hobbyists platform, irrespective of where it came from....

https://embedded.fm/blog/2017/8/12/dont ... ional-work

to take Nick(G)'s point about cost. That is reflected in the blog, and I entirely agree. But, whenever I used an arduino board it was always a Chinese board from ebay and they are in the region of £2.50, and not £9.

Personally I don't know whether I'd ever use Arduino for a commercial product, probably not. Even the mickey mouse stuff that I've done with Arduino has been a nightmare on the version control front....but then I'm not sure whether most hobbyist Arduino users are even aware of version control.

In the end I beleive it's just another example of how the IT phenomena has evolved...I mean how many times have you(NickDS) had to remedy development performed by users that are completely unaware of standard method or standards in general. This applies to some so called IT professionals as well. This is a phenomena that I beleive started the moment users had a computer on their desks, as opposed to a terminal....but it may be dying out now with better corporate standards and control, and more professional education.
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#173 Re: General Raspberry Pi stuff

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When dealing with historical code, through gritted teeth, it's often best to leave well alone - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it is broke, then rewrite it to current standards.

Main issue was always with traders, most of whom believe that they are a superior advanced lifeform and consequently exempt from normal controls, when they hire in a random PhD quant to do some hideous derivative risk modelling in Excel, then go back to do a post-doc leaving an load of awful VB and no documentation, comments or anything resembling a supportable application...

In all the teams I've run, involving 100s of developers over the years, I've always insisted on tight coding standards, often ANSI compliance and the use of static code analysers to prescan code and check compliance. Typically, the delivery workflow involved the Atlassian toolchain plus heavy QA and regression testing.

Really good developers who are are team players are as rare as hens teeth.
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#174 Re: General Raspberry Pi stuff

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IMHO, the problem with being a team player is often the rest of the team. It normally evolves to whatever the weakest member wants, as often the weakest member is better at convincing management that what they want is to the benefit of all (as they have realised that convincing management is easyier than learning how to be a competent developer).
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#175 Re: General Raspberry Pi stuff

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And of course the incompetence team player who is good at talking to management is generally the one that gets promoted to management, and so is likely to be in agreement with the next iteration of the least competent in the team. And so it goes on.
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#176 Re: General Raspberry Pi stuff

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Nick wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:54 pm And of course the incompetence team player who is good at talking to management is generally the one that gets promoted to management, and so is likely to be in agreement with the next iteration of the least competent in the team. And so it goes on.
Very good :) The Peter Principle at work...

That's sometimes the case, but I've always operated a meritocracy and generally with "360" reviews, from which it's difficult to hide.

One of the better C++ coding standards in common use is High Integrity C++ - highly regarded and a worthwhile reference for any C++ programmer, professional or otherwise - I've used it for years to keep myself on the straight and narrow.
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#177 Re: General Raspberry Pi stuff

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Very good :) The Peter Principle at work...
Not exactly the same thing, but similar in effect.
One of the better C++ coding standards in common use is
Maybe, but wasn't going to give my details just to read that. The fact that they have reduced it to 155 rules backs up my preference for C instead of C++.
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#178 Re: General Raspberry Pi stuff

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Nick wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:23 pm
Very good :) The Peter Principle at work...
Not exactly the same thing, but similar in effect.
One of the better C++ coding standards in common use is
Maybe, but wasn't going to give my details just to read that. The fact that they have reduced it to 155 rules backs up my preference for C instead of C++.
I'll send you a copy...

I bet there's loads of folk that could come up with more than 155 ways (probably unintentionally) to totally screw up a C program!

I was part of the ANSI C X3J11 working group (it was excruciatingly tedious) back in the 1980s, so started out on C. I still have my original copy of K&R from the late 1970s in the workshop on the "Shelf of Doom"...

I don't dislike it, but it's so unsafe in so many ways that I haven't used it for a long while, except for very specific time critical loops where C++ may well have been just as good.

Edit: and in short initialisation code on microprocessors where the framework requires C-style binding.
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#179 Re: General Raspberry Pi stuff

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I bet there's loads of folk that could come up with more than 155 ways (probably unintentionally) to totally screw up a C program!
No doubt, but we have been around this loop before.
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#180 Re: General Raspberry Pi stuff

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Nick wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:10 pm
I bet there's loads of folk that could come up with more than 155 ways (probably unintentionally) to totally screw up a C program!
No doubt, but we have been around this loop before.
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