Nothing In Particular

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vinylnvalves
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#13516 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by vinylnvalves »

Just think of the scenario if this rare weather situation occurs in 10 years when everyone has heat pumps and electric cars.... I wonder what the issues are with the HV grid - is it lack of maintenance, ensuring trees cannot hazard cables etc, as the pylons and cables are designed to cope with really freaky weather.
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Nick
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#13517 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by Nick »

vinylnvalves wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:29 am Just think of the scenario if this rare weather situation occurs in 10 years when everyone has heat pumps and electric cars.... I wonder what the issues are with the HV grid - is it lack of maintenance, ensuring trees cannot hazard cables etc, as the pylons and cables are designed to cope with really freaky weather.
Yep, but conversely think of the situation if the global temperature has gone up 1C, hundreds of species have become extinct, land is under water etc...
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
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jack
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#13518 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by jack »

Nick wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:39 am
vinylnvalves wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:29 am Just think of the scenario if this rare weather situation occurs in 10 years when everyone has heat pumps and electric cars.... I wonder what the issues are with the HV grid - is it lack of maintenance, ensuring trees cannot hazard cables etc, as the pylons and cables are designed to cope with really freaky weather.
Yep, but conversely think of the situation if the global temperature has gone up 1C, hundreds of species have become extinct, land is under water etc...
Heat pumps take very little power unless doing their weekly sterilisation cycle (killing legionella). Consequently, a small generator will keep a heat pump going easily - yes, the generator might require a bit of fossil fuel, but with a COP of around 4 for a decent heat pump and hopefully only a few days running, it's a complete win. Gensets typically have 24 hours of fuel, normally diesel for decent sized ones.

Our slight problem is that our heat pump is three-phase which complicates things a bit - a three-phase generator is about 2 grand and there's probably about 1 grand's worth of electrical modification to do to make it easy to switch over, not including an automatic transfer switch (ATS) - ATS are quite sophisticated and expensive - using one also means using a genset with remote start/stop capability which again adds to the cost. The upside is that no replugging is required when the power fails - there's just a brief hiatus whilst the genset spins up and the voltage stabilises, then the genset is placed online and you continue as normal. This obviously would also work if you're away when the power goes so your freezers etc. are protected.

Taking the ATS out of the equation, a bit of manual replugging is not such a big deal as long power cuts are pretty infrequent down here - should that situation change an ATS could easily be retrofitted.

FWIW, ATS are used in data centres (DCs), normally with a big online UPS that covers in interval between the utility feed failing and the genset spinning up and voltage becoming stable. In DCs, this is typically under 1 minute, so having a UPS with a 10 minute run time is normally plenty (*)

My office and comms UPSs at home (APC SmartUPS systems) provide about 25-30 minutes run time before they shut down - no genset at the moment, just to cover the types of brown- and black-outs we have here.

(*) you always have extra as if the genset DOESN'T spin up correctly, you have a bit of time to sort it before the UPS runs out of battery. For this reason, the fuel tanks of proper DC systems are flushed every year and the fuel replaced, plus we do "dark building" tests where we simply disconnect the utility feed at the main isolator and check that the recovery systems kicks in as expected - normally done 4 times a year.
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vinylnvalves
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#13519 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by vinylnvalves »

Having an alternative power source, isn’t the way forward.. “ I’m alright Jack” (no pun intended) isnt fixing the problem of our total reliance on electric going forward, whilst being greener. How can a storm wipe out power supplies, assume its from substation to the end user. Aren’t all new supplies meant to be underground now. BTW - diesel post 2035 may be a challenge... even for farmers, electric tractors?
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#13520 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by jack »

vinylnvalves wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:39 am Having an alternative power source, isn’t the way forward.. “ I’m alright Jack” (no pun intended) isnt fixing the problem of our total reliance on electric going forward, whilst being greener. How can a storm wipe out power supplies, assume its from substation to the end user. Aren’t all new supplies meant to be underground now. BTW - diesel post 2035 may be a challenge... even for farmers, electric tractors?
In rural communities, overhead is the norm as it's prohibitively expensive and difficult to bury the cables, especially across farmland where all sorts of activity may occur. Ground conditions may also make buried cables difficult - consider bits of Scotland where there is minimal topsoil and granite underneath!

Normally you have overhead to the local community substation (or pole-pig) and then the local tail is buried.
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pre65
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#13521 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by pre65 »

vinylnvalves wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:39 am Having an alternative power source, isn’t the way forward.. “ I’m alright Jack” (no pun intended) isnt fixing the problem of our total reliance on electric going forward, whilst being greener. How can a storm wipe out power supplies, assume its from substation to the end user. Aren’t all new supplies meant to be underground now. BTW - diesel post 2035 may be a challenge... even for farmers, electric tractors?
It seems Jack (Nick) is well prepared for electrical supply disruptions, and he obviously has the time, knowledge, DIY skills and financial might to equip his farm with every device known to man to mitigate the problems.

So, if and when any other of us suffer the same problems at least we will know that Jack is sitting pretty in the warm.
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steve s
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#13522 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by steve s »

But Jack... if your heat pump is 3 phase does that not make it cheaper to run.. everything I've read about single phase heat pumps say they are more expensive than equiv gas ch..?

And.. most uk housing needs much better insulation to retain the heat that most heat pumps supply for when we have our cold spells.

My house has wood suspended floors
And soon chills down when it's cold and windy despite the insulation we have added..
Last edited by steve s on Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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steve s
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#13523 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by steve s »

vinylnvalves wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:29 am Just think of the scenario if this rare weather situation occurs in 10 years when everyone has heat pumps and electric cars.... I wonder what the issues are with the HV grid - is it lack of maintenance, ensuring trees cannot hazard cables etc, as the pylons and cables are designed to cope with really freaky weather.
I think that's a valid point..
We're just having a second log burner fitted..nothing to do with concerns over the grid though, but its almost free heat (excluding the cost of the fire)
The tube manual is quite like a telephone book. The number of it perfect. It is useful to make it possible to speak with a girl. But we can't see her beautiful face from the telephone number
vinylnvalves
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#13524 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by vinylnvalves »

So who’s responsibility is it to ensure that the LV supplies coming over head aren’t subject to trees hazarding them? My experience in the National gas grid (30 odd years ago) was that for the main transmission pipes 4 foot and above Transco were responsible for there up keep. The smaller pipes were managed locally to the end user by the energy suppliers

I wonder are we seeing a lack of hazard maintenance being the cause of these power supply issues - not cutting trees back etc.

On the matter of heat pumps - something I am currently going around only a proper ground source array seems to be an economic alternative to gas. I apparently need around 500m2 for a horizontal array to heat my home. Space on my lawn I don’t have, without hazarding the surrounding trees. I am getting my cousin an green energy consultant to go around my options- I do wonder whether a big PV array in the garden, charging some very big batteries and heating with electric under floor mats would be a more sensible option.
steve s
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#13525 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by steve s »

vinylnvalves wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:34 am I am getting my cousin an green energy consultant to go around my options- I do wonder whether a big PV array in the garden, charging some very big batteries and heating with electric under floor mats would be a more sensible option.
I hope you keep us updated on that Steve...

My campervan solar panel didn't keep just the battery charged in darkest winter , cold batterys and weak sun are not a good combo
This year I've fitted a better smart controller
It's been good enough to keep the 12 vt fridge running indefinitely with a favourable combination of sun and temp.. but still waiting to see if it keeps the battery charged over winter..
The tube manual is quite like a telephone book. The number of it perfect. It is useful to make it possible to speak with a girl. But we can't see her beautiful face from the telephone number
vinylnvalves
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#13526 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by vinylnvalves »

[/quote]

I think that's a valid point..
We're just having a second log burner fitted..nothing to do with concerns over the grid though, but its almost free heat (excluding the cost of the fire)
[/quote]

I didn’t realise you had that many failed speaker designs to burn. :D Free wood isn’t going to be a thing in the future- wood is starting to be regulated you won’t be allowed to just have a load dropped off from a local tree surgeon. I can only know get firewood in the summer know, as the tree surgeon I use, sells hardwood chippings to Drax in the winter for £160 per tonne. However when the sap rises in the spring the price drops to £30, so that’s when I get a 10 tonne load for £300 - which I cut split and store for at least 2 years before use.
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#13527 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by steve s »

I have a couple of chain saws and a heavy log splitter Steve.
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jack
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#13528 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by jack »

steve s wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:32 pm I have a couple of chain saws and a heavy log splitter Steve.
Don't have a log splitter (rely on the brother in law for that) but do have the chainsaw and wood burner...

One plus for doing what I did for the National Trust is that we get free wood from the estate - they have barns full of the stuff.

The point I was making re backup power supplies is that rural communities have all sorts of infrastructure issue, one of which is security of energy delivery.

The reason I have a secured power infrastructure here is that I run a business from the premises so it's a must-have, not a nice-to-have.
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vinylnvalves
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#13529 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by vinylnvalves »

steve s wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:32 pm I have a couple of chain saws and a heavy log splitter Steve.
That only explains how you process the free wood - are neighbours trees vanishing in the night? :D I only probably generate a week or two’s worth of fire wood from pruning the 20 trees or so we have.
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#13530 Re: Nothing In Particular

Post by steve s »

vinylnvalves wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:23 pm

That only explains how you process the free wood - are neighbours trees vanishing in the night? :D I only probably generate a week or two’s worth of fire wood from pruning the 20 trees or so we have.
Your right is does steve, but it does hint at the fact I'm well used to processing wood for the fire.
I have a few friends that let me take/ remove trees, and it is only secondary heating, so only burn a few tons a winter.
And then there's all those failed loudspeakers... 😀
The tube manual is quite like a telephone book. The number of it perfect. It is useful to make it possible to speak with a girl. But we can't see her beautiful face from the telephone number
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