Question for Garrard 401 owners

301, 401, plinths and assorted idler stuff
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adhoc
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#1 Question for Garrard 401 owners

Post by adhoc »

With your turntable disconnected from the mains and the power switch on the TT set to "On" (so that the friction stop thingamajig is disengaged and not in contact with the platter) - if you push the platter, how long does it rotate for?

I ask this because my TT's platter comes to a stop almost immediately. To me, that implies high friction, likely in the bearing assembly. That can't be good as I've had the main bearing upgrade done by Darren here. There is also significant resistance to rotating the spindle by hand, which I do not remember when I first received the spindle.

Is something wrong? Help!
~ Aaron
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adhoc
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#2

Post by adhoc »

Just a bit of background -

I had left my TT unused for about a month, as I was travelling interstate and away from home.

Then I first noticed some speed stability issues with my TT about a half-week ago. There was a noticeable wow and flutter, and I was having issues with speed stability. This had never happened before.

Anyone? :(
~ Aaron
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shane
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#3

Post by shane »

It's not going to be the bearing, so what else could it be? Theres only two things touching the platter; the brake and the idler. If you're having wow problems, perhaps the idler's gone soft and is sticking to the platter? Is it very hot there? Take the platter off and have a look.
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#4

Post by Darren »

Hi Aaron,

You had the bearing mod over six mths ago now so I doubt it would be anything to do with that. Bearings become slacker with use, not tighter.

If you are switching the unit to the on position then you are in fact engaging the idler and motor. So effectively you are using the platter to spin up the motor. Due to the high gearing ratio I would expect the whole thing to come to a dead stop once you stopped providing the "hand" power.

If you are experiencing wow and flutter then there are other problems and perhaps it's time for a full service?
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Paul Barker
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#5

Post by Paul Barker »

Don't know if the 301 is identical in this respect but mine is original no mods and it does the exact same thing you are experiencing.
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pre65
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#6

Post by pre65 »

Hi-i did your test on my 401,which i overhauled myself,and the platter manages about 2 or 3 revolutions (depends how hard you spin it) so that would not seem to indicate a problem with your one.
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#7 Re: Question for Garrard 401 owners

Post by pre65 »

adhoc wrote:. There is also significant resistance to rotating the spindle by hand, which I do not remember when I first received the spindle.

Is something wrong? Help!
Hi,re reading your original post,if you remove the platter and turn the spindle with your fingers can you feel resistance ?
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. John Lennon

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Nick
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#8

Post by Nick »

I might be missing something here, but when the TT is on (but the motor not running), the idler and motor are connected to the platter, so turning the platter will be turning the motor, and possibly forcing the idler hard into the spindle, I don't know. What happens with the TT turned off so the idler is not engaged.

Also, doesn't a 401 have a brake?
Resistance isn't futile it's V / I.
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shane
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#9

Post by shane »

When you try to turn the platter by hand (with the brake off), your pushing the platter will "lift" the idler away from the motor spindle and the platter will virtually freewheel. It's only if you try to push the platter backwards that the idler will be forced hard against the motor spindle and will try to turn the motor, which it won't be able to do. From playing speed, if the brake is not engaged I would expect the platter to revolve for about three turns until the light rubbing of the idler stops it. When the power is switched off, the motor will stop within about a second.
Anyone with a 401 or Lenco, try switching on the turntable with the power disconnected. You will find that it is easy to turn forwards and almost impossible to turn backwards.
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#10

Post by simon »

Me too! My 401 is doing the same. I wasn't sure if it was because the bearing had leaked the really thin oil that was in it or if there was something else. I've seen reports that Garrards run without any lube so wonder if it's the idler or motor. I put it in a cupboard a few months ago until I have the time to fettle it properly so I'm reading with interest.
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#11

Post by Paul Barker »

3 turns is a farsical figure Spin it like a madnan and you get 14 turns give it a nudge you get one turn and you get a variable ratio between.

Does that say anything which assists?

No? Thought not.
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#12

Post by Greg »

Hi Aaron,

You can see that your test example is difficult to assess because there is no measure on how much energy goes into the manual spin of the platter, however, I've carried out your power off test on my 401 which also has a fully upgraded Slatedeck bearing. Spinning the platter with the sort of energy used to say spin start one of those belt drive TT's that rely on low torque motors (Nottingham for example), my platter will spin freely for two revolutions. It seems to me, coupled with your wow observation that you do have a rotational restriction somewhere and following Shane's post, that would suggest either the bearing or a sticking idler wheel.

I would advise as suggested above, remove the platter and twist the spindle and feel for any resistance and at the same time, check if your idler spins freely. I will add that the Slatedeck modified bearing will not spin as freely as a lubricated standard one but this is to be expected because Darren uses an alternative and uprated lubricant which does not have the same properties as thin oil and is a bit sticky so a manual rotation of the spindle will feel this in comparison to an oiled bearing. This is not your issue or cause as obviously, Darren has researched well and the lubricant he uses works excellently considering the more than adequate torque of the Garrard motor. A properly lubricated idler wheel should spin for alot of revolutions before stopping when not linked to the motor drive or the platter.

I hope that helps.

Best wishes,

Greg
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adhoc
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#13

Post by adhoc »

Darren,

Is the centre spindle meant to be difficult to turn?

It's actually difficult to turn when firmly gripped - I've removed the entire bearing assembly to test this out and I do not recall it being this difficult to turn at all.
~ Aaron
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#14

Post by Darren »

Hi Aaron,

No it should not be difficult at all. As you have had this bearing for some time now and it's only recently showing problems, I think we have to look at why this may be so.

Difficult to assess from the other side of the world, but just how hot is it in your part of Aus? This is only a guess, but is it possible that the lubricant has thickened to some degree? It's a wild shot, but something is up.

I would suggest you strip and clean the bearing with a solvent and see how free it is without any lubricant.
Please let us know what you find.
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#15

Post by adhoc »

OK all, did some experiments.

With the brake pushed back [so that even when the power switch is set to "off" it does NOT contact the platter] the platter [which is disengaged from everything - motor & brake] stops within 1/2 a revolution. That can't be good considering someone else's platter takes 3 revolutions to stop WITH the motor engaged.

When I turn the spindle with my fingers, I can "feel" something faintly rubbing inside - the 'sssss' sensation is felt in my fingertips. There is a noticeable resistance to turning. Is this normal?

I've also noticed something. I cannot get the thing up to 33rpm anymore, even with the brake set to maximum '+'.

There really does appear to be something wrong with my spindle assembly. :(
Last edited by adhoc on Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
~ Aaron
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