Sub Woofer

Dedicated to those large boxes at one end of the room
User avatar
cressy
Shed dweller
Posts: 2906
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:07 pm
Location: the great white space
Contact:

#46 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by cressy »

I quite like the uni q units, back in the day I took a set of q 15s to bits and fitted them in the parcel shelf of my mates h reg 1.0 fiesta :D

We bashed together a sub box with a car amp and 10" driver for the boot too. Car was the loudest for miles around. One time we drove around blasting the 1812 overture as loud as we could stand, the looks on peoples faces were brilliant.

Yes we were a pair of twats :)
User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Old Hand
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:50 am
Location: Muppet Labs

#47 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Nick wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:42 pm
Owston is a long way and I don't see it as a venue for good comparison, but I will happily send stuff up if someone here will take responsibility for it. I will leave it for others to decide what you want to hear.
I am only too happy to do that if you like.
Great, it will end up being what I have spare v what people want to hear. Perhaps a thread to see what goes, as it is OT here, in fact all this shit is OT but you can see who is doing it per usual. How dare *I* have an opinion :roll:

http://www.hifisubjectivist.org/viewtop ... =8&t=44722
Last edited by Dr Bunsen Honeydew on Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
IslandPink
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 10041
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 7:01 pm
Location: Denbigh, N.Wales

#48 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by IslandPink »

I'm just going to put some technical thoughts down here, see if I can get back to the specifics of what John needs for his system.
I'm not a big fan of heavy-duty bass in the sub 40Hz range myself, either. I do find the subject of how to do quality bass ( and not necessarily LOUD either ) in the 35Hz to 80Hz range, to interface properly to Electrostats or Horns, VERY interesting. I haven't done enough work in this area yet to have fully-formed opinions, so it's good to have some discussion. The same range is also of interest if you're going to deal with the mid/bass driver compromises by building moderated-size sealed box monitors, which have some obvious advantages. By freeing-up the lowest octave, you make life simpler in some ways but the task of getting a well-blended bass solution is not trivial.
We've mentioned OB, and I like OB bass if done right. I'm going to upset Ali here ( most likely ) by saying that my scepticism about the Eminence Alphas is not helped by you telling me you used twin Alphas on your OB solution - which I heard a good while back to be fair. Now, it could be how you used the DSP, but I wasn't entirely happy with it, and it was something of a feeling it was a bit loose or uncontrolled that I didn't like .....
In my opinion it's a lot better to go with the Betas and let the OB design ( eg. with some side wings ) and either series resistance or a series choke help put the Q up towards the ideal 0.7 value.
The other option , rather similar is the extension of the OB idea that Heil and Nelson Pass originally developed ( I think - Richard may correct me ) , with slot-loading at the front. Taken to its extreme it becomes the 'Ripole' concept, but I feel the Ripole is pushing things a bit, with so much cancellation around the sides, it's pretty inefficient and this can give rise to some problems as a number of postings on threads over the last few years have shown.
I'd prefer to see something with more substantial side-wings , as in the very good summary Nelson Pass provides here :
http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_slob.pdf
This is essentially the same thing that JC Morrison has built a couple of times for the big WE horns systems for Joe Roberts ( Silbatone ) or at the recent ETF.
Now it would only take a single pair of drivers to do something useful in a normal sized room, for augmenting electrostats , so it would be nice to see someone try that.
The key thing to get any of these things to work is how the phase behaves in the crossover region. With electrostats I suppose the phase rotates slowly and smoothly as their response tails off , like OB or a sealed box. This must be helpful. For horns it's more tricky as they tend to fall of a cliff edge , but I know that JC regarded the slot/baffle bass at ETF as being the most successful he'd ever used on a horn system , which is encouraging.
"Once you find out ... the Circumstances ; then you can go out"
User avatar
pre65
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 21393
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: North Essex/Suffolk border.

#49 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by pre65 »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:45 pm I never measure my speaker designs, apart from with a multimeter to see if there are shorts or open circuits. Not even in early design, it was a two decade long empirical process trying loads of configs before I decided to sell them. It was a selection process using my ears and my music, everything else is bollocks, and just tells you lies.
Perhaps you could have used some "measurements" to shorten the gestation period ?

Not many of us (if any) can ponce about for 20 years to get a speaker sounding acceptable. :lol:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Old Hand
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:50 am
Location: Muppet Labs

#50 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Do you have any brains at all, isn't it obvious. OK I will waste more time. In the early 70s I worked for Acoustic Research in Houghton Regis. I worked with a full anechoic chamber and all the daft test gear you could think of, I know what lies it tells you, but that was not my main job which was Teac Tascam and DBX which they had taken on. I have always had an interest in speaker design and built many AS A HOBBY. When I had my first company (PA:CE / Tresham) I built some for test purposes and still messed around. Early day with NVA I used a few different speakers, amps were designed with Quad 57s, I even tried Isobariks (stolen) and Sara's. All did some things well all were ultimately unsatisfactory, the nearest to doing what I wanted were Allisons. I studied his work and added my own and my own experiences which led to the mk1 Cubes in the early 90s, company went almost entirely export mostly to the far east and they only wanted amps, so speaker went on the back burner until reactivated about 10 years ago with new work.

Now please feck off and leave me alone or do I have to have more inane statements or questions.
User avatar
andrew Ivimey
Social Sevices have been notified
Posts: 8315
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:33 am
Location: Bedford

#51 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by andrew Ivimey »

So Dr B, if your speakers are any good it's with your music and your ears, everything else is bollocks.

Now why isn't this supremely subjective?

But I'd love to have a listen - pity I can't make Owston.

Hope you'all get this together.
Philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point, however, is to change it. No it isn't ... maybe we should leave it alone for a while.
User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Old Hand
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:50 am
Location: Muppet Labs

#52 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

I didn't say that.
IDM
Old Hand
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 5:50 pm

#53 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by IDM »

I have sometimes considered a sub woofer, and wondered about this as a cheap DIY solution:

http://www.transcendentsound.com/Subwoofer.html

Maybe coupled with this D-amp as its cheap:



I am however concerned on where to take the D-amp input from. I have seen a few buffer amp solutions but not sure on the best way to do it.
Cheers
Ian
User avatar
pre65
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 21393
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: North Essex/Suffolk border.

#54 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by pre65 »

IDM wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:33 pm I have sometimes considered a sub woofer, and wondered about this as a cheap DIY solution:

http://www.transcendentsound.com/Subwoofer.html

Cheers
Ian
Interesting article. :)
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Old Hand
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:50 am
Location: Muppet Labs

#55 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

IMO

Sub woofewrs are an attempted cure for a perceived problem, and as with all cures it has side effects ALWAYS, major one being a loss of musical reality and timing. So your speakers / system must be pretty naff if this is a sensible solutions. As with all things don't cure - prevent, that means getting your speaker right in the first place.
User avatar
shane
Social outcast
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:09 pm
Location: Kept in a cool dry place.

#56 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by shane »

Since I'm probably the only person here to have actually published a subwoofer design (with a bit of help from a mate. Wonder what happened to him?), I ought to be able to pontificate st great length, but I can't 'cos it was sh*te. Great fun though. Rattled the windows and woke every dog in the neighbourhood. There was one track on one album where it worked brilliantly, (Little Feat, Long Distance Love). On anything else it just rattled and throbbed away to itself, taking no notice of the actual music at all.
Happy days. We were young and innocent...

http://www.thepippin.plus.com/Misc/minimax%201.pdf

http://www.thepippin.plus.com/Misc/minimax%202.pdf

Apologies for the second one being upside down.
Last edited by shane on Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The world looks so different after learning science. For example, trees are made of air, primarily. When they are burned, they go back to air, and in their flaming heat is released the flaming heat of the Sun which was bound in to convert air into tree.
User avatar
Ali Tait
Eternally single
Posts: 4387
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:10 pm
Location: Galashiels

#57 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Ali Tait »

IslandPink wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:49 pm I'm just going to put some technical thoughts down here, see if I can get back to the specifics of what John needs for his system.
I'm not a big fan of heavy-duty bass in the sub 40Hz range myself, either. I do find the subject of how to do quality bass ( and not necessarily LOUD either ) in the 35Hz to 80Hz range, to interface properly to Electrostats or Horns, VERY interesting. I haven't done enough work in this area yet to have fully-formed opinions, so it's good to have some discussion. The same range is also of interest if you're going to deal with the mid/bass driver compromises by building moderated-size sealed box monitors, which have some obvious advantages. By freeing-up the lowest octave, you make life simpler in some ways but the task of getting a well-blended bass solution is not trivial.
We've mentioned OB, and I like OB bass if done right. I'm going to upset Ali here ( most likely ) by saying that my scepticism about the Eminence Alphas is not helped by you telling me you used twin Alphas on your OB solution - which I heard a good while back to be fair. Now, it could be how you used the DSP, but I wasn't entirely happy with it, and it was something of a feeling it was a bit loose or uncontrolled that I didn't like .....
In my opinion it's a lot better to go with the Betas and let the OB design ( eg. with some side wings ) and either series resistance or a series choke help put the Q up towards the ideal 0.7 value.
The other option , rather similar is the extension of the OB idea that Heil and Nelson Pass originally developed ( I think - Richard may correct me ) , with slot-loading at the front. Taken to its extreme it becomes the 'Ripole' concept, but I feel the Ripole is pushing things a bit, with so much cancellation around the sides, it's pretty inefficient and this can give rise to some problems as a number of postings on threads over the last few years have shown.
I'd prefer to see something with more substantial side-wings , as in the very good summary Nelson Pass provides here :
http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_slob.pdf
This is essentially the same thing that JC Morrison has built a couple of times for the big WE horns systems for Joe Roberts ( Silbatone ) or at the recent ETF.
Now it would only take a single pair of drivers to do something useful in a normal sized room, for augmenting electrostats , so it would be nice to see someone try that.
The key thing to get any of these things to work is how the phase behaves in the crossover region. With electrostats I suppose the phase rotates slowly and smoothly as their response tails off , like OB or a sealed box. This must be helpful. For horns it's more tricky as they tend to fall of a cliff edge , but I know that JC regarded the slot/baffle bass at ETF as being the most successful he'd ever used on a horn system , which is encouraging.
No upset from me Mark, I know my OB's are not perfect in the bass, indeed I have recently been looking at alternatives to the Alphas for a new design. The design as it is isn't mine though, it was a Martin King creation. To be fair, you probably heard them with the Behringer 2496 - this has been considerably improved upon by the miniDSP 4x10.

I certainly agree with you on how best to marry to the mid driver used, horn or otherwise, given I've pretty much decided to go with a set of vintage Crysler compression drivers & horns for 500- 5k hz, so I'm looking for 15" or so drivers that will match these well.

I'm quite happy with the depth and quantity of bass I get, I'd just like a bit more detail and articulation in those frequencies.

You can't knock the Alphas given the cost though!
User avatar
Cressy Snr
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 10576
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 12:25 am
Location: South Yorks.

#58 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Cressy Snr »

As Max Bygraves would have said: I wanna tell you a story, and some folk on here may remember the gear I had at the time.
Cast your minds back 10 years to the girl who's next to me in school. No, I'll start again....Ahem.

Cast your minds back ten years to when I was messing with my original Fostex FE108EZ Mets at Eggborough with a Ruark active sub, providing the low end. Without exception everyone there told me that the mid and top were great, but the bass sucked.
Colin was also running a pair of oak framed electrostatics with built in active crossovers with subs built into each cabinet.
Running off one of Nick's 211 breadboards, again, the bass sucked and it was only when the subs were turned off that the full glory of Jeff Wayne's "War of the Worlds" was allowed through.

Fast forward a few years to Owston where I was still persisting with subwoofers, by now running a pair of plate amps feeding Eminence Delta 12s, courtesy of Mr I, in the bottoms of my Goodman's Axiom 401 open baffles. I was taken to one side by Colin and again told that despite my best efforts, the bass still sucked. No matter what phase I used, no matter what crossover freq was dialled in, no matter how low the damned things were turned, the bass still sucked; not as much as it did, but it still sucked. "I don't know what all this obsession with bass is about" said Colin. "What you need to do Steve is to stop messing about with subs and get the speaker right in the first place"

Soon after that, I ditched all ideas about trying to match dipole speakers with monopole bass or monopole speakers with active bass reinforcement and went back to developing my Metronome concept, with the help of Scott. 2011 saw my 5ft tall, FF225WK Mets born, with big wideband driver in quarter-wave transmission line cabinet. A couple of false starts with shouty mids, cured with a damping ring at the dustcap/cone junction and a ribbon tweeter to replace the horn, and we ended up with a superb, natural sounding speaker, with simple capacitor crossover. That speaker is now resident at Dave and Meredith's place and hopefully is still providing and will continue to provide, fine musical entertainment, and I am now developing the same concept into a semi-omni, with folded transmission line providing the bass end.

The point I'm making is that I've played around with subs and have never got bass I was happy with. Maybe that's due to my own incompetence, and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from trying to get them to work, but IMO unless installed in a home cinema room, with surround speakers and used for movie sound effects, or as part of a theatre, music venue or nightclub PA system, they are superfluous: inappropriate in a domestic, home hi-fi system. You are not listening to the music, because you are forever fiddling with them. They never sound right, so need adjusting on a record by record basis. Fine...If that floats your boat, but I can't be arsed messing about with such amusical concepts anymore. I would rather, as Colin said all those years ago, get the speakers right in the first instance.
The more bits of speaker I have simplified, the better the musical outcome has become. Just my opinion, no axe to grind, YMMV and any other disclaimer I can think of.
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Sgt. Baker started talkin’ with a Bullhorn in his hand.
User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Old Hand
Posts: 1358
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:50 am
Location: Muppet Labs

#59 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

EXACTLY though I doubt you will be shat on the way I just have - it must be the way I say it :lol: :lol: :P :bounce:
IDM
Old Hand
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 5:50 pm

#60 Re: Sub Woofer

Post by IDM »

Hi Shane,
How did you integrate the sub into your system. From the article (I admit I only scan read it) it looks like the sub is simply added to the existing stereo amplifier. If that's the case how did you adjust it's frequency range or set the level? If you couldn't set the level I am not surprised it didn't sound good and is therefore possibly not representative of what subs might be able to achieve.
Cheers
Ian
Post Reply