Tactile perception

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rowuk
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Tactile perception

Post by rowuk » Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:24 pm

I am in the think through stage of improving my playback. Each loudspeaker currently has 2x 12" woofers in a sealed 80 liter cabinet (Fc-500 Hz). Measured LF extension is more or less flat to 30-35 Hz. Efficiency is close to 100dB/watt. The listening room is about 20 square meters large.

When listening, the presentation is currently large with lots of "space" and "depth". Comparing my feelings with live concerts, there is a certain amount of "tactile" sensation missing - even in classical music (my most listened to genre). I am not talking about slam. Even live chamber music with no real LF at all has this parameter. A solo lute or voice can show this. There is a certain amount of sensation currently there (more than most systems that I have heard elsewhere), just not as much as I would like. I listen to a lot of my playback at very much live levels (especially chamber music). I have experimented extensively with equalization, various subwoofers, relocating the speakers. I can get more bass, but not that increased "tactile" feeling.

Has anyone experimented with tactile perception in audio (not shakin yer booty...).

I am not looking for a recipe or recommendations for new hardware. I am more interested where it comes from and how to manipulate it.
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Wolfgang
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Re: Tactile perception

Post by Wolfgang » Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:56 pm

In a nutshell I would say it depends on how well the amps can drive the speakers (not only power related) so that they can couple effectively enough to the air volume of the listening room and how capable the speakers are to do that (like:moving enough air fast enough) which then creates ideally this typical “live music” feeling in the listening position. Listening at music style typical “live” levels is the first step.

It also needs some EQ (in addition to room correction) in order to adjust the settings that every studio/live recording adds to the music. One cannot get an accurate feeling for the recorded music if one has to listen to two acoustic realities (studio/venue and listening room) superimposed on each other and both dominant enough - at least at certain frequencies -to overpower each other. But that’s what people do if they don’t control the room acoustics of recording and/or playback.With some recordings this problem shows more than with others and we normally call them "bad" or "good" recordings.

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The Stratmangler
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Re: Tactile perception

Post by The Stratmangler » Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:25 pm

Are you listening to the live music in your home listening environment?
I suspect not.
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Re: Tactile perception

Post by IslandPink » Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:51 pm

Is tactile perception at all related to what I would call 'low-level detail', ie. the ability to work effective at low dB levels as well as high dB levels ?
This is where I've been heading in recent years, using drivers with low Rms values.
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Re: Tactile perception

Post by rowuk » Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:55 pm

Actually, I have "enough" bass. Tactile is the part that our ears does not process, rather our skin. It is the texture of the sound. I listen mostly to live recordings, many of which are symphonies that I perform with. There is no compression or equalization and NO DSP. 4x12" LF drivers is quite a bit of coupling and the stereo has enough "slam" on that type of music. I am talking about tactile things that happen - especially in small ensemble performances. Like I originally wrote - this can happen with a solo voice or lute (guitar). There is part of that "not massive" sound that is not processed by the ears, rather the body. Part of it can be the feeling of being in a big room. In a live concert, it can be an infinitely small sensation, but it is there and I want to learn how to manipulate it at home.
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Re: Tactile perception

Post by IslandPink » Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:12 pm

rowuk wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:55 pm
Actually, I have "enough" bass.
Yes, I got that point - which is why I suggested what I outlined above. However I still think the ears are receiving what we perceive as 'tactile perception'. But maybe I misunderstand - when you spoke of a string quartet I assumed you meant subtlety of dynamics, or tonal discrimination ?
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Re: Tactile perception

Post by rowuk » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:44 pm

It is more like someone touching my cheek gently. It happened in this particular concert when only a solo violin was playing some dissonant harmonies (Danse Macabre by C. Saint-Saëns). I was behind my trumpet on stage and the solo violinist was perhaps 20 feet away. It happened several times during that concert and triggered memories of similar live acoustic events. It is an experience that I have never had in audio playback. I am hoping that someone will have researched the skins threshold of sound perception. Goosebumps can be triggered by a whisp of air or other stimuli outside of what comes from the ear. Scratching fingernails on a chalkboard can also cause the skin to react.

I am hoping someone will have also noticed similar things in live music - or even their audio playback.
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Re: Tactile perception

Post by Cressy Snr » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:30 pm

rowuk wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:44 pm
. Goosebumps can be triggered by a whisp of air or other stimuli outside of what comes from the ear. Scratching fingernails on a chalkboard can also cause the skin to react.

I am hoping someone will have also noticed similar things in live music - or even their audio playback.
Well, my single driver Fane speakers sound like fingernails on a chalkboard most of the time. Does that count?
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Re: Tactile perception

Post by IslandPink » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:47 pm

Whether this is the same or not, I don't know - but there are times when I get the hairs on my neck standing up or a jolt of realism that takes my mind off anything else I'm doing at the time. These are nearly always subtle tonal colours or combinations, vocals that sound so real they are in the room, or the 'stuff between the notes'. I have only experienced these insights from low-power drivers or compression drivers which have no 'stiction'.
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Re: Tactile perception

Post by Wolfgang » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:58 pm

These are nearly always subtle tonal colours or combinations, vocals that sound so real they are in the room, or the 'stuff between the notes'. I have only experienced these insights from low-power drivers or compression drivers which have no 'stiction'.
That would also describe some part of what I experience. I would add that in my case it also needs certain amps together with these low-power drivers: always very simple circuits and preferably SE OTL.

But I think we are not only talking about a purely physical phenomenon here. It's rather metaphysical or "subtle". A.Danielou goes into details in his book "Music And The Power Of Sound, The Influence of Tuning and Interval on Consciousness".

Quote:"Music, above all other arts, has always been esteemed for its power to speak directly to our higher consciousness. Based on unchanging laws of number and proportion, music also embodies the fundamental metaphysical principles underlying everyday reality. How do these aspects of music's power, its twin roots in consciousness and mathematics, relate to one another? "

Danse Macabre and violin would be a perfect combination to evoke those feelings.

I was wondering, Rowuk, if you wouldn't mind to tell us what sound system you use as performing musician?

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Re: Tactile perception

Post by shane » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:23 am

rowuk wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:44 pm
It is more like someone touching my cheek gently.
This sounds like synaesthesia to me, albeit a rare Form:

”Auditory-tactile synesthesia
In auditory-tactile synesthesia, certain sounds can induce sensations in parts of the body. For example, someone with auditory-tactile synesthesia may experience that hearing a specific word feels like touch in one specific part of the body or may experience that certain sounds can create a sensation in the skin without being touched. It is one of the least common forms of synesthesia.”

The above taken from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

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Re: Tactile perception

Post by Dave the bass » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:26 am

Or is it just a natural human emotional response you get from listening to some music's?

Music can be really emotive stuff.
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Re: Tactile perception

Post by rowuk » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:42 pm

Wolfgang, this is a shot of my rig:
Image

This thread documents a lot of what went into the concept:
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB3/view ... =11&t=5666

I now have 3 channels of amplification per side 2x RH84 and 1x RH307A Super. All dedicated single ended pentodes with OPTs matching the frequency range to be reproduced. A big hi inductance OPT/RH307A for the 12" woofers <500 Hz, a wide band OPT for an EL84/horn 500-10k and a small fast OPT for the planar tweeters also using an EL84. The crossovers are passive line level built into the amplifiers.The preamp is a Pass B1 kit and the phono corrector is still not done so I am using a transistor one that is decent.

New 66cm midrange horns have been purchased and are on their way. A project for March with some special twists...

As far as the tactile sensations go, I really am interested if I can manipulate it with the playback. I haven't found anything on the "skins" ability to sense audio - except the slam type...
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Re: Tactile perception

Post by IslandPink » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:54 pm

What are the bass driver units ?
I couldn't see any info on the previous thread - so interested to hear.
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Re: Tactile perception

Post by vinylnvalves » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:58 pm

About 5 years ago.. at a HIFI show, Linn had a demonstration room where they were showing off there new DSP system. They had a 6 channel system playing into a 3 way Seas based speaker system. They demonstrated the effect of linear phase. They had a conventional crossover arrangement and the same arrangement with the timing aligned to generate linear phase. It was very clear to hear the differences between the two different setups, which they played the same track over and over again in AB comparisons. The linear phase seemed to add a sense or depth and realism and weight to the bottom end particularly- which could be what you describe as tactile perception. Whether Linn were introducing additional trickery to enhance the effect I don’t know. Your system will have different delays especially between the closed boxed bass and the horns, I know mine does, I tweak the timing in mine via the DSP to get it closer.

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