Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
- izzy wizzy
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#271 Re: Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
Might be a silly question but have you swapped valves from the good one to bad one yet? Or tried another valve in that position that oscillates?
- Thermionic Idler
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#272 Re: Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
Not yet, but I think I have identified the culprit. The question is - what is the solution?
Shorting pins 2 and 3 of the XLR input, i.e. the primary side of the line input transformer, stopped the oscillation dead in its tracks. This was consistent and repeatable. As I said previously, there is a length of twisted pair interconnect between the XLR and the transformer on this amp, but not on the other one.
My suspicion is that the oscillation problem will go away if these are now connected to the preamp. However, clearly we have some interaction between the feedback loop going into some sort of resonance with the transformer secondary, when any length of paired wires are connected to the primary, but left open circuit at the other end. I suspect on the other amplifier, the wires being much shorter wasn't enough to 'tip' it into oscillation.
The question is now how to resolve it, as this could potentially damage tweeters I need to ensure it's safe agaiinst having the input cables pulled out. Something as simple as a resistor or capacitor across the primaries?
Shorting pins 2 and 3 of the XLR input, i.e. the primary side of the line input transformer, stopped the oscillation dead in its tracks. This was consistent and repeatable. As I said previously, there is a length of twisted pair interconnect between the XLR and the transformer on this amp, but not on the other one.
My suspicion is that the oscillation problem will go away if these are now connected to the preamp. However, clearly we have some interaction between the feedback loop going into some sort of resonance with the transformer secondary, when any length of paired wires are connected to the primary, but left open circuit at the other end. I suspect on the other amplifier, the wires being much shorter wasn't enough to 'tip' it into oscillation.
The question is now how to resolve it, as this could potentially damage tweeters I need to ensure it's safe agaiinst having the input cables pulled out. Something as simple as a resistor or capacitor across the primaries?
Deck: Garrard 301 - Audio Origami PU7 - NW Analogue DH3S
Phono: Pete Millett LR, Lundahl SUT, AMB σ22 PSU
Linestage: Bruno Putzeys Balanced Pre + Hans Polak relay mod, LCDuino control
Power amps: 300B PP 'Symmetric Reichert'
Speakers: FF225WK Big Mets
Phono: Pete Millett LR, Lundahl SUT, AMB σ22 PSU
Linestage: Bruno Putzeys Balanced Pre + Hans Polak relay mod, LCDuino control
Power amps: 300B PP 'Symmetric Reichert'
Speakers: FF225WK Big Mets
#273 Re: Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
Why not just use a cheap sacrificial speaker?
Sorry, I couldn't resist!
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#274 Re: Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
Input/ interstage transformers and feedback are not the best of bedfellows.Thermionic Idler wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:52 pm Not yet, but I think I have identified the culprit. The question is - what is the solution?
Shorting pins 2 and 3 of the XLR input, i.e. the primary side of the line input transformer, stopped the oscillation dead in its tracks. This was consistent and repeatable. As I said previously, there is a length of twisted pair interconnect between the XLR and the transformer on this amp, but not on the other one.
Sgt. Baker started talkin’ with a Bullhorn in his hand.
- izzy wizzy
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#275 Re: Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
When I first started in this hobby, my first build was an ARC SP3 copy. I built amp after amp after amp trying to get rid of an oscillation that caused the power amp to burn up, literally, blue smoke came out of it when I hooked up the SP3. I rebuilt this thing countless times using different parts until one day there was only one common thing left; a twisted pair from the output to a pair of phono sockets. Changing that stopped the oscillation. Not saying that's it for you but I'd swap valves around first and then maybe swap out the wire for something else. There's no need to use anything fancy or shielded but use something different. And not a criticism of your soldering, but it could be a dry joint.Thermionic Idler wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:52 pm Not yet, but I think I have identified the culprit. The question is - what is the solution?
Shorting pins 2 and 3 of the XLR input, i.e. the primary side of the line input transformer, stopped the oscillation dead in its tracks. This was consistent and repeatable. As I said previously, there is a length of twisted pair interconnect between the XLR and the transformer on this amp, but not on the other one.
My suspicion is that the oscillation problem will go away if these are now connected to the preamp. However, clearly we have some interaction between the feedback loop going into some sort of resonance with the transformer secondary, when any length of paired wires are connected to the primary, but left open circuit at the other end. I suspect on the other amplifier, the wires being much shorter wasn't enough to 'tip' it into oscillation.
The question is now how to resolve it, as this could potentially damage tweeters I need to ensure it's safe agaiinst having the input cables pulled out. Something as simple as a resistor or capacitor across the primaries?
Cheers,
Stephen
#276 Re: Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
In the case of the TS 300B OTL PP this oscillation happens only with one monoblock (both built exactly the same). It starts as soon as it's connected to the preamp but only with Nordost type interconnects. With Acoustic Zen interconnects for example no problem.My suspicion is that the oscillation problem will go away if these are now connected to the preamp. However, clearly we have some interaction between the feedback loop going into some sort of resonance with the transformer secondary, when any length of paired wires are connected to the primary, but left open circuit at the other end. I suspect on the other amplifier, the wires being much shorter wasn't enough to 'tip' it into oscillation.
- Thermionic Idler
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#277 Re: Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
Happy days!
So later on last night, I connected up both amps to the preamp, but connected the load resistors instead of the speakers. The bias was set, and stayed absolutely rock steady. I then put the oscilloscope on both channels to monitor them for over half an hour to ensure nothing untoward happened. There was no hint of any oscillation or other nasties, both load resistors stayed cool as a cucumber. So this is definitely an issue that only occurs when nothing is connected to the line inputs.
We then took a deep breath, hooked up the speakers and played some music, still with the scope on the outputs for the rest of the evening to monitor things. Oh yes - these are REALLY good - we got more of the same in stereo that was apparent when we tried the first one on its own. I'll do a more detailed write up later when they've shaken down a bit.
So as long as they are not powered up without being connected to the preamp then everything is fine - nevertheless I think it would be wise to see if there is a way that can be mitigated, without degrading the sound. At least XLR connectors 'lock' into place so there's less likelihood of them being accidentally yanked out. EDIT - I suppose one simple workaround would be to make a pair of shorting XLR plugs to put in place when the amps are travelling to somewhere like Owston.
So later on last night, I connected up both amps to the preamp, but connected the load resistors instead of the speakers. The bias was set, and stayed absolutely rock steady. I then put the oscilloscope on both channels to monitor them for over half an hour to ensure nothing untoward happened. There was no hint of any oscillation or other nasties, both load resistors stayed cool as a cucumber. So this is definitely an issue that only occurs when nothing is connected to the line inputs.
We then took a deep breath, hooked up the speakers and played some music, still with the scope on the outputs for the rest of the evening to monitor things. Oh yes - these are REALLY good - we got more of the same in stereo that was apparent when we tried the first one on its own. I'll do a more detailed write up later when they've shaken down a bit.
So as long as they are not powered up without being connected to the preamp then everything is fine - nevertheless I think it would be wise to see if there is a way that can be mitigated, without degrading the sound. At least XLR connectors 'lock' into place so there's less likelihood of them being accidentally yanked out. EDIT - I suppose one simple workaround would be to make a pair of shorting XLR plugs to put in place when the amps are travelling to somewhere like Owston.
Deck: Garrard 301 - Audio Origami PU7 - NW Analogue DH3S
Phono: Pete Millett LR, Lundahl SUT, AMB σ22 PSU
Linestage: Bruno Putzeys Balanced Pre + Hans Polak relay mod, LCDuino control
Power amps: 300B PP 'Symmetric Reichert'
Speakers: FF225WK Big Mets
Phono: Pete Millett LR, Lundahl SUT, AMB σ22 PSU
Linestage: Bruno Putzeys Balanced Pre + Hans Polak relay mod, LCDuino control
Power amps: 300B PP 'Symmetric Reichert'
Speakers: FF225WK Big Mets
#278 Re: Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
Result!
and in time for winter too...
and in time for winter too...
Last edited by Ray P on Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sorry, I couldn't resist!
- izzy wizzy
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#279 Re: Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
Fantastic. Remarkable project and attention to detail. You must be very pleased. They look amazing. Can we see some close ups?
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#280 Re: Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
Now those are ultra-shoddy!
Sgt. Baker started talkin’ with a Bullhorn in his hand.
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#281 Re: Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
Stunning! Well done!
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#282 Re: Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
Top notch !
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- Thermionic Idler
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#283 Re: Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
Thanks everyone. We’re breaking them in with the Lord Of The Rings trilogy
Deck: Garrard 301 - Audio Origami PU7 - NW Analogue DH3S
Phono: Pete Millett LR, Lundahl SUT, AMB σ22 PSU
Linestage: Bruno Putzeys Balanced Pre + Hans Polak relay mod, LCDuino control
Power amps: 300B PP 'Symmetric Reichert'
Speakers: FF225WK Big Mets
Phono: Pete Millett LR, Lundahl SUT, AMB σ22 PSU
Linestage: Bruno Putzeys Balanced Pre + Hans Polak relay mod, LCDuino control
Power amps: 300B PP 'Symmetric Reichert'
Speakers: FF225WK Big Mets
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#284 Re: Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
Which I think added a bit of capacitance to the anode, and loaded it in the HF / ultrasonic region, this reduced the gain in that region and that's what stopped the oscillation. Because self oscillation is a combination of positive feedback and a gain > 1, both of which are easily done in the HF range by phase delay through the amplifier and in the NFB line.Now, when I put the voltmeter probe on V1A pin 6 (the anode of the first stage) the oscillation stopped dead, and I got a 105V measurement against a spec of 100V. Could that have any significance?
Now I'd be thinking about maybe adding a small value capacitor between V1A anode and the plus side of C10. Say 47pF or 100pF. This is not unusual and I've seen old designs with exactly this.
"No matter how fast light travels it finds that the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it."
- Thermionic Idler
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#285 Re: Dieselpunk Preamp of Doom and the Beast with Two Backs
Thanks Mike - might be worth a try. This bit is on the PCB so adding it could be a touch fiddly. I also wondered about adding a grid stopper to the first stage, although the Jensen application diagram doesn't show one.Mike H wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:18 pmWhich I think added a bit of capacitance to the anode, and loaded it in the HF / ultrasonic region, this reduced the gain in that region and that's what stopped the oscillation. Because self oscillation is a combination of positive feedback and a gain > 1, both of which are easily done in the HF range by phase delay through the amplifier and in the NFB line.Now, when I put the voltmeter probe on V1A pin 6 (the anode of the first stage) the oscillation stopped dead, and I got a 105V measurement against a spec of 100V. Could that have any significance?
Now I'd be thinking about maybe adding a small value capacitor between V1A anode and the plus side of C10. Say 47pF or 100pF. This is not unusual and I've seen old designs with exactly this.
Deck: Garrard 301 - Audio Origami PU7 - NW Analogue DH3S
Phono: Pete Millett LR, Lundahl SUT, AMB σ22 PSU
Linestage: Bruno Putzeys Balanced Pre + Hans Polak relay mod, LCDuino control
Power amps: 300B PP 'Symmetric Reichert'
Speakers: FF225WK Big Mets
Phono: Pete Millett LR, Lundahl SUT, AMB σ22 PSU
Linestage: Bruno Putzeys Balanced Pre + Hans Polak relay mod, LCDuino control
Power amps: 300B PP 'Symmetric Reichert'
Speakers: FF225WK Big Mets