Tesla.

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Paul Barker
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#61 Re: Tesla.

Post by Paul Barker »

Those adverts for (non plug in hybrids) I’m mystified what sort of fool would buy one of those. So the internal combustion hydrocarbon engine is generating electricity, which produces less power (50%) probably than you would have had if you just had the internal combustion engine..... oxymoron! Wheres the benefit to the ozone layer from making the burning of hydrocarbons less productive by using the inefficiency of converting it to electricity first?

I have no objection to a plug in hybrid or pure electric car.

charging youre batteries as you drive a petrol or diezel car? You must be rich or stupid. All these are bandwaggons, youre the guinee pig, wait wait wait for the technology, especially its viability and reliability, to match the polical rhetoric,
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#62 Re: Tesla.

Post by Neal »

There are huge issues with hydrogen fuel cells, from the cost of production to the amount of energy required to produce it, to the storage of it and the distribution of it. It’s a green house gas and leakage from storage and distribution alone makes it a non starter. The world is moving to EV, we will just have to adapt with less commuting and more working from home where possible etc.
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#63 Re: Tesla.

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At work there was Nissan leaf pool car based at wakefield, i think it had a 100mile range, I spoke to one guy who drove to Sheffield and back in it, he said it was great driving to Sheffield, quick, quiet..
After driving a few miles around Sheffield, back on the motor way the battery gauge was reading very low and he had a stressful 50mph drive back to wakefield with the radio and lights off (it was raining) to save power..
After a few months the car did not get used
People forget that with a petrol or diesel you have 50 miles or so reserve. The electrics include that as far as I know.
Then there's night time driving with your lights on which must affect the range ?
I think electric cars will be great in a few years, but other technology could turn them into betamax, who knows.
Our battery hedgetrimer runs for 40 mins or so and is a fantastic tool, but a car..?
I watched a machine that made hydrogen from water and a solar panel on TV a few weeks ago, it was painfully slow and alot of water was involved, so it seemed unlikely to replace anything we have powering a car at the moment..
Modern technology is big business, but theres no money in selling water
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#64 Re: Tesla.

Post by izzy wizzy »

I understand the boiler industry trying to get an alternative to natural gas going but whatever why you look at it, burhing things to heat something else is inefficient. Sure there's all that investment in infrastructure that is already there but it's not really up to the job for hydrogen.

IMHO, the future doesn't lie in burning things and air source heatpumps and solar are more likely to be the future (for homes) with much higher efficiency and electric (boilers) as a backup for wet systems.

Anyhoo, this isn't about cars but same applies I think for the future. Just hard for some (maybe many) being an early adopter.
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#65 Re: Tesla.

Post by izzy wizzy »

steve s wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:34 am but theres no money in selling water
That's another business that needs to stop along with burning things as it is huge business and a massive polluter.
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#66 Re: Tesla.

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steve s wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:34 am
I think electric cars will be great in a few years, but other technology could turn them into betamax, who knows.
That's sort of the point I was trying to make.

If I was like David, leasing an electric car would make sense, in many ways.

Being on a pension, doing limited miles and having a serviceable car makes me not want to jump on the wagon now.

If technology does bring substantial improvements to electric cars (say within 5 years) what are today's electric cars then going to be worth ?

The only person on hi-fi forums (that I know of) to currently own (as opposed to leased) an electric car is John Caswell on World Designs.
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#67 Re: Tesla.

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I’m mystified what sort of fool would buy one of those.
You are forgetting regenerative breaking, that will also charge the batteries for free using otherwise wasted energy and reducing the need to replace disks and pads. Current F1 cars are non plug in hybrids, they take energy from breaking and the exhaust gas. They use the energy to provide extra power. The same idea works for a road car. use the battery for town use where its more efficient (and cleaner) and the engine for motorway use, where its at its most efficient. And use the battery to boost the motor so a smaller engine can be used.
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#68 Re: Tesla.

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I think electric cars will be great in a few years, but other technology could turn them into betamax, who knows.
Says the man with a house full of old British valves :-)
Being on a pension, doing limited miles and having a serviceable car makes me not want to jump on the wagon now.
So that’s an argument why you would not buy a new car of any sort. If you were in the market for a new car then it might be different. Not sure what wagon jumping is involved, its just about choices.
to currently own (as opposed to leased)
Why that distinction?
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#69 Re: Tesla.

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Neal wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:28 am There are huge issues with hydrogen fuel cells, from the cost of production to the amount of energy required to produce it, to the storage of it and the distribution of it. It’s a green house gas and leakage from storage and distribution alone makes it a non starter. The world is moving to EV, we will just have to adapt with less commuting and more working from home where possible etc.
I read recently of a new development, using a wonder material, which enabled hydrogen to be stored at a lower pressure, and (somehow) to store more in a tank of any given size.

But, also, the battery inventor who claims to have developed a battery that gives a vastly greater range, but can't be charged at home. He hopes to have exchange batteries at supermarkets for a quick swapover.

So, there are things on the horizon that could make what we have today obsolete.
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#70 Re: Tesla.

Post by ed »

I'm firmly in the cynical camp...who would've guessed it!

Paul brought up the question of sterling....I read quite a few years ago that if the uninhabited parts of the sahara and other deserts were turned into fields of sterling generators, powered by focussed mirrors then the minimal area could be used to supply the electricty needs of the whole planet.....there was then the problem of distributing this energy to different continents but wouldn't that have been a challenge worth pursuing.

likewise I read quitea few years ago that when wave power was put forward as an alternative in the sixties, the figures stacked up. The nuclear lobby doctored the figures somehow and the government chose nuclear because it was the best solution on paper.

in a democracy you can't force a national policy(not overtly anyway) and then there is the problem of transparency...altogether these things take time...transparent debate would get us a lot further than we are at the moment, I beleive!!
Last edited by ed on Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#71 Re: Tesla.

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New developments are all well and good like the sodium battery but getting them out of the lab and into cost viable mass production is another thing entirely and will take many years. The issues around hydrogen production and storage still remain, even though this is dated 2018 this is still relevant and is a well balanced look at the pros and cons of hydrogen vs battery cars:
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#72 Re: Tesla.

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I read recently of a new development, using a wonder material, which enabled hydrogen to be stored at a lower pressure, and (somehow) to store more in a tank of any given size.
Petrol does just that perfectly well.
But, also, the battery inventor who claims to have developed a battery that gives a vastly greater range, but can't be charged at home. He hopes to have exchange batteries at supermarkets for a quick swapover.
Tesla did trial replaceable batteries. There are lots of problems, among others, you buy a new car with a new shiny battery, you replace it with a old knackered one. Not a big attraction.But if the battery inventor had actually done that he would just sell it to a car maker and be very very rich. Its a version of the "run your car on water with this additive the car companies don't what you to know about" scam.

One of the biggest advantages of a EV is you can charge it at home. The major problem to solve is how people in flats do that.
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#73 Re: Tesla.

Post by Neal »

The issue with all battery development is the trade that has to be made between power, density, capacity, life and cost. All technologies today have to trade at least two of them to have the others, so I can have great power, density and life but the cost will be high and capacity too small etc.
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#74 Re: Tesla.

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I think I'd like an electric car, and for 90% of my needs, one would be fine, so when I win the lottery I'd be straight off to the nearest Jaguar dealers for an i pace, but then I could afford another car for the 10% usage.

The infrastructure is woefully inadequate in the UK, and as Nick says, for anyone who can't (for whatever reason) easily access a charging point at the vehicles overnight parking spot makes an EV a no go choice.

Yes Nick, Petrol is good, but the whole point of going EV is to reduce pollution ?
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#75 Re: Tesla.

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The infrastructure is woefully inadequate in the UK, and as Nick says, for anyone who can't (for whatever reason) easily access a charging point at the vehicles overnight parking spot makes an EV a no go choice.
I don't know how good or bad it is at the moment, I suspect though its better than you are suggesting.
Yes Nick, Petrol is good, but the whole point of going EV is to reduce pollution
I was just pointing out that petrol is actually just a way of storing the energy in hydrogen bonds in a liquid. Which is just what your invention sounded like.
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