New to me Deck
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- Thermionic Monk Status
- Posts: 5651
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:22 am
- Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
#31
Last night I threw together the slate plinths that Will brought down for me this weekend, the ones that were supporting Will's 401 at Owston. It's a real lash-up - all I've done at this stage is set the slate up on the dining table, dragged the 401 out of a cupboard and relubed the bearing, then rested it on the top plinth. It's not even bolted down.
Will has most generously lent me one of his Schroeders till I get one made. So I've set this up very crudely with a Kontra B
See, I told you it was crude!
The phono stage is still set up for a 103pro so it's not right for the Kontra but it still sounds really rather good. It has all that organinc, natural sound that Will's did at Owston. Too good for a lash-up really. Hopefully it will get better when I eventually get it set up properly. Which could be a while with domestic arrangements as they are at the moment.
Although it's difficult to be scientific about it I think a lot of the credit must go to Will's arm. It's a super implementation, and I think a lot of the natural ease comes from this.
Without doubt the best sound from vinyl I've ever had at home.
Will has most generously lent me one of his Schroeders till I get one made. So I've set this up very crudely with a Kontra B
See, I told you it was crude!
The phono stage is still set up for a 103pro so it's not right for the Kontra but it still sounds really rather good. It has all that organinc, natural sound that Will's did at Owston. Too good for a lash-up really. Hopefully it will get better when I eventually get it set up properly. Which could be a while with domestic arrangements as they are at the moment.
Although it's difficult to be scientific about it I think a lot of the credit must go to Will's arm. It's a super implementation, and I think a lot of the natural ease comes from this.
Without doubt the best sound from vinyl I've ever had at home.
#32
Post by Frank Shroeder on AA
Hello,
Another thread that is charcterized by hearsay and a lack of understanding of the function/working principle of a tonearm, particularly my own designs, instead of opinions based on personal experience.
My take on this: The Triplanar is an arm that handles cartridges that transfer a lot of energy into its structure very well and so does a No. 2 arm. The ZYX Airy 3 is NOT particularly difficult in this respect, but differs in its presentation from the other members of the Airy family. In an attept to make a ZYX that is subjectively "faster"(some may call it "more energetic") the frequency response measurably peaks above 10kHz.
Any arm that has a not so well damped armwand/arm structure, will emphasize this trait.
A lot of listeners are in fact used to this kind of effect or a tipped up tonal balance, mistaking it for better detail retrieval or more "air" around the instruments. My arms are not intended to nor do they sound "soft", but they are designed to handle energy fed into the arm structure in a way that it doesn't get reflected to be picked up by the cart again by evenly dissipating broadband exitation/energy(instead of "ringing" like many, not all, metal and most carbonfiber armwands).
My arm certainly doesn't have six degrees of freedom! Not when you take the forces seen by the bearing(excerted by the cart as it traces he grooves)and compare it with other arms. If you consider the necessary force to "lift" the upper magnet from its lower sibling(typically 5kg+) and compare it to all other true unipivots, I'd have to say they have at least 4 degrees of freedom since it takes less force to lift any of them off their pivot(the moving assemblies of unipivots do not exceed 0,5kg, incl. the counterweight).
I've done some laser aided analysis on the bearing displacement relative to tracking force, stylus profile, and modulation. The linear displacement for a tracking force of 2gr., 40my modulation with a cart featuring a high quality line contact stylus was less than 3/10000 of a mm, much smaller than your typical "play" required for safe operation of cone/ball bearings. More importantly, there is no modulation dependent "jitter" type of movement as this is damped through induction of eddy currents.
The other string bearing arm, Bill Firebaughs Well Tempered arm, shows significant linear displacement under conditions listed above, but is equally good at avoiding the sonic degredations caused by bearing play(it features quite a bit stronger damping compared to my arms).
Lastly, I've heard the Airy III many times in various arms. Which combinations you like, will depend upon the character of your system, the acoustics of your listening room and, most importantly, your personal taste.
To all people who post statements that begin with "I've talked to people that said ..., I've heard it from a reliable source..., I understand that..., etc., please tell your sources to post here. Unless you've had the actual components in question in your own system(or maybe your best friend's system), you're just waisting bandwidth.
And, by all means, if you have a question about my arms, drop me a mail or give me a call
A great weekend to all of you,
Frank Schröder
Hello,
Another thread that is charcterized by hearsay and a lack of understanding of the function/working principle of a tonearm, particularly my own designs, instead of opinions based on personal experience.
My take on this: The Triplanar is an arm that handles cartridges that transfer a lot of energy into its structure very well and so does a No. 2 arm. The ZYX Airy 3 is NOT particularly difficult in this respect, but differs in its presentation from the other members of the Airy family. In an attept to make a ZYX that is subjectively "faster"(some may call it "more energetic") the frequency response measurably peaks above 10kHz.
Any arm that has a not so well damped armwand/arm structure, will emphasize this trait.
A lot of listeners are in fact used to this kind of effect or a tipped up tonal balance, mistaking it for better detail retrieval or more "air" around the instruments. My arms are not intended to nor do they sound "soft", but they are designed to handle energy fed into the arm structure in a way that it doesn't get reflected to be picked up by the cart again by evenly dissipating broadband exitation/energy(instead of "ringing" like many, not all, metal and most carbonfiber armwands).
My arm certainly doesn't have six degrees of freedom! Not when you take the forces seen by the bearing(excerted by the cart as it traces he grooves)and compare it with other arms. If you consider the necessary force to "lift" the upper magnet from its lower sibling(typically 5kg+) and compare it to all other true unipivots, I'd have to say they have at least 4 degrees of freedom since it takes less force to lift any of them off their pivot(the moving assemblies of unipivots do not exceed 0,5kg, incl. the counterweight).
I've done some laser aided analysis on the bearing displacement relative to tracking force, stylus profile, and modulation. The linear displacement for a tracking force of 2gr., 40my modulation with a cart featuring a high quality line contact stylus was less than 3/10000 of a mm, much smaller than your typical "play" required for safe operation of cone/ball bearings. More importantly, there is no modulation dependent "jitter" type of movement as this is damped through induction of eddy currents.
The other string bearing arm, Bill Firebaughs Well Tempered arm, shows significant linear displacement under conditions listed above, but is equally good at avoiding the sonic degredations caused by bearing play(it features quite a bit stronger damping compared to my arms).
Lastly, I've heard the Airy III many times in various arms. Which combinations you like, will depend upon the character of your system, the acoustics of your listening room and, most importantly, your personal taste.
To all people who post statements that begin with "I've talked to people that said ..., I've heard it from a reliable source..., I understand that..., etc., please tell your sources to post here. Unless you've had the actual components in question in your own system(or maybe your best friend's system), you're just waisting bandwidth.
And, by all means, if you have a question about my arms, drop me a mail or give me a call
A great weekend to all of you,
Frank Schröder
#33
Another, I use the same thread (fishing Line)
Sorry to correct you, but the suspension thread does not resonate. And your analogy regarding the working cart equalling the plucking of a string is incorrect too. Just imagine you attempting to pluck a string where it's attached rigidly, - well, you can't really, as that's where the knot(point of zero movement) is. Transversal vibration propagation is possible, but is damped through internal/frictional losses since the thread is comprised of several hundred individual fibres. It is not a Nylon thread and it is LESS compliant than a steel wire of comparable tensile strength(far more pliable though...)
Altering the magnet gap changes the flux line density and therefore the amount of damping, it is not a "thread resonance tuning feature". Increasing the magnet gap will also reduce the "rigidity" of the bearing, but only once you go past 2mm will this become audible.
And quite frankly, my arm's design principle is the most copied of all commercially available arms. Just google "schroeder tonearm clone" or check out diyaudio.com. Since noone came up with a clone(in the true sense of the word), it seems to be less easy to copy it as one would think...
Besides that, the design is patented and while I encourage DIYers to build their own version, any attempt to produce a commercial version will be shortlived.
Cheerio,
Frank Schröder
Sorry to correct you, but the suspension thread does not resonate. And your analogy regarding the working cart equalling the plucking of a string is incorrect too. Just imagine you attempting to pluck a string where it's attached rigidly, - well, you can't really, as that's where the knot(point of zero movement) is. Transversal vibration propagation is possible, but is damped through internal/frictional losses since the thread is comprised of several hundred individual fibres. It is not a Nylon thread and it is LESS compliant than a steel wire of comparable tensile strength(far more pliable though...)
Altering the magnet gap changes the flux line density and therefore the amount of damping, it is not a "thread resonance tuning feature". Increasing the magnet gap will also reduce the "rigidity" of the bearing, but only once you go past 2mm will this become audible.
And quite frankly, my arm's design principle is the most copied of all commercially available arms. Just google "schroeder tonearm clone" or check out diyaudio.com. Since noone came up with a clone(in the true sense of the word), it seems to be less easy to copy it as one would think...
Besides that, the design is patented and while I encourage DIYers to build their own version, any attempt to produce a commercial version will be shortlived.
Cheerio,
Frank Schröder
- Dave the bass
- Amstrad Tower of Power
- Posts: 12276
- Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 4:36 pm
- Location: NW Kent, Darn Sarf innit.
#34
Right! Thats spurred me on. Thanks for the piccies Simon and Will for all the advice.
Time to get busy with the fishy (line).
DTB
Time to get busy with the fishy (line).
DTB
"The fat bourgeois and his doppelganger"
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- Old Hand
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:32 pm
- Location: sheffield
#35
just got some of those platter damping rings off e bay
my verdict is you are wasting your money on a slate deck if you don't fit these as well
i tried taking the rings off again after a couple of track and it was nasty. muddled, confused, incoherent, ugh
and the sound seems more dynamic as well ! (with them on)
i can't beleive the difference they make, graeme recons i've may have a lot more mileage to get out of more damping to platter and chassis.
got to go to work now so i'll have to drag myself away from the music
my verdict is you are wasting your money on a slate deck if you don't fit these as well
i tried taking the rings off again after a couple of track and it was nasty. muddled, confused, incoherent, ugh
and the sound seems more dynamic as well ! (with them on)
i can't beleive the difference they make, graeme recons i've may have a lot more mileage to get out of more damping to platter and chassis.
got to go to work now so i'll have to drag myself away from the music
#36
I sure do
Ive not gotten my hand on a garrard yet but im sure alot of what i learnt with my lenco can be utilised on a garrard too.
Im also sure you could make significant improvements to a garrard if you were prepared to take an angle grinder to it.
I think the value of garrards puts people off of modifying them.
Lenco's are cheap and plentiful so its easy to cut them up and get them sounding as good, maybe better, than garrards. If the same tricks were aplied to a garrard how would that sound?!
I know alot of things done to lenco's are to overcome the deficiencies compared to garrards but i think theres room for improvement.
One day ill find a horible, scaby 401 for £100, then ill cut it up and see what happens.
Ive not gotten my hand on a garrard yet but im sure alot of what i learnt with my lenco can be utilised on a garrard too.
Im also sure you could make significant improvements to a garrard if you were prepared to take an angle grinder to it.
I think the value of garrards puts people off of modifying them.
Lenco's are cheap and plentiful so its easy to cut them up and get them sounding as good, maybe better, than garrards. If the same tricks were aplied to a garrard how would that sound?!
I know alot of things done to lenco's are to overcome the deficiencies compared to garrards but i think theres room for improvement.
One day ill find a horible, scaby 401 for £100, then ill cut it up and see what happens.
#37
What did I miss, what rings? Where?richardcooper2k wrote:just got some of those platter damping rings off e bay
my verdict is you are wasting your money on a slate deck if you don't fit these as well
i tried taking the rings off again after a couple of track and it was nasty. muddled, confused, incoherent, ugh
and the sound seems more dynamic as well ! (with them on)
i can't beleive the difference they make, graeme recons i've may have a lot more mileage to get out of more damping to platter and chassis.
got to go to work now so i'll have to drag myself away from the music
-- Andrew
#38
On ebay, big o-rings kind of thing, go around the outside edge of the platter.
If they made such a big difference then maybe theres alot more vibration killing to do in a 401?
Im sure if rich wants to try some of my lenco findings on his 401 then he'll let you know the results
If they made such a big difference then maybe theres alot more vibration killing to do in a 401?
Im sure if rich wants to try some of my lenco findings on his 401 then he'll let you know the results
#39
here you go Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/5cgcyy
there's been a bit of interest on the net about these, I think the jury's still out at the moment though
http://tinyurl.com/5cgcyy
there's been a bit of interest on the net about these, I think the jury's still out at the moment though
David
Wasps are the Katie Price of the Animal Kingdom - utterly pointless and bloody irritating!
Wasps are the Katie Price of the Animal Kingdom - utterly pointless and bloody irritating!
#42
These people ar in the UK, sell o rings in all different materials and in all different sizes.
A quick look through the site shows o rings with diameters suitable for a platter in all different size cross sections.
http://www.jameswalker.biz/group/produc ... rings.html
A quick look through the site shows o rings with diameters suitable for a platter in all different size cross sections.
http://www.jameswalker.biz/group/produc ... rings.html
- andrew Ivimey
- Social Sevices have been notified
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- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:33 am
- Location: Bedford
#43
Crikey! there's so many and what a technology!
Group order everyone?!?
Group order everyone?!?
#44
andrew Ivimey wrote:Crikey! there's so many and what a technology!
Group order everyone?!?
yep I'd be up for that,
David
Wasps are the Katie Price of the Animal Kingdom - utterly pointless and bloody irritating!
Wasps are the Katie Price of the Animal Kingdom - utterly pointless and bloody irritating!