401 Platter Bearing

301, 401, plinths and assorted idler stuff
User avatar
Dave the bass
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 10635
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 4:36 pm
Location: NW Kent, Darn Sarf innit.

Post by Dave the bass » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:47 am

SteveTheShadow wrote:
Moth*****kin rumble messin' up ma bass (how low can ya go!)
:lol:

..."Inna groove trackin' error rippin' offya face"

DTB
Dirt eating, low-voltage boy but "'Occasionally phenomenal'"

Cressy Snr
Oooo, Roberts Radio's sound nice
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 12:25 am
Location: South Yorks.

Post by Cressy Snr » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:53 am

God forbid us ever entering a rapping competition eh Dave. :D :D
Happiness is not good for the economy Matt Haig.

User avatar
Ali Tait
Social outcast
Posts: 3417
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:10 pm
Location: Dunfermline

Post by Ali Tait » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:47 pm

Now that would be funny..

User avatar
Dave the bass
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 10635
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 4:36 pm
Location: NW Kent, Darn Sarf innit.

Post by Dave the bass » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:08 pm

Ali Tait wrote:Now that would be funny..
Painful more like!

DTB
Dirt eating, low-voltage boy but "'Occasionally phenomenal'"

Reffc
User
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:37 am

Post by Reffc » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:00 pm

Ali Tait wrote:I note he has the 401 version on ebay -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XTP401-SPINDL ... 19e2243345

Has to be worth a go at that price.
That's the same one that I used for mine but since fitting it, I have been informed by John of Palmer audio, during a chat, that even the softer phosphor bronze bearing can wear the hardened steel shaft...how does he know? I think he mentioned something about seeing bronze deposited on the spindle base and wear on the spindle coating. I'm not so sure as it's hard to see how a softer metal can wear a harder one to that extend. My own view is that the type of oil used is of paramount importance. Whereas the older thrust pad was in a bath of (essentially) sewing machine oil, something like a long polymer chain synthetic (Mobile 1 for example) is often recommended for Garrard and Michell decks. I'd imagine the extra viscosity would affect motor loading and speed, but as it's adjustable, I can't see any real issues with the Garrard. The main advantage when using a ball bearing rather than a thrust pad is that fully synthetic oil has a far greater shear strength than light mineral oils and can withstand the much larger pressure generated between ball bearing surface and spindle. I wouldn't recommend using any other type of oil for that reason. I've refurbished a few Garrards now, including my one and after a few years using the new ball bearing I can see no notable wear on the spindle.

User avatar
Greg
Shed dweller
Posts: 2563
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 11:14 am
Location: Bristol, UK

Post by Greg » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:13 pm

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the info particularly regarding your own experience on oil and the use of the phosphor bronze ball bearing. That is helpful. Certainly I use Mobil 1 for lubrication and I don't rely on the standard oil feed tap to top up lubrication. In my view, the only way to do it is to remove the unit from the deck, remove the base plate and then, after cleaning, immerse everything in a bath of Mobile 1 immediately before reassembly, mopping up spillage as you go. The down side is getting a clean oil free mating surface for the base plate to ensure a good oil tight seal. I don't think the old paper gasket on its own is sufficient and the use of some gasket sealant here is helpful. Even when you do achieve that oil tight seal, you can be sure that oil will leach out from the top of the bearing and gradually spread across the top surface of the chassis....well it does in my case.

Greg
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
Douglas Adams (HHGTTG)

User avatar
Ali Tait
Social outcast
Posts: 3417
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:10 pm
Location: Dunfermline

Post by Ali Tait » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:19 pm

Thanks for the info Paul, good to know, I'll use Mobil 1. The bearing turned up today, just waiting for some grommets and springs and I'll be good to go.

User avatar
Ali Tait
Social outcast
Posts: 3417
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:10 pm
Location: Dunfermline

Post by Ali Tait » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:22 pm

Greg wrote:Hi Paul,

Thanks for the info particularly regarding your own experience on oil and the use of the phosphor bronze ball bearing. That is helpful. Certainly I use Mobil 1 for lubrication and I don't rely on the standard oil feed tap to top up lubrication. In my view, the only way to do it is to remove the unit from the deck, remove the base plate and then, after cleaning, immerse everything in a bath of Mobile 1 immediately before reassembly, mopping up spillage as you go. The down side is getting a clean oil free mating surface for the base plate to ensure a good oil tight seal. I don't think the old paper gasket on its own is sufficient and the use of some gasket sealant here is helpful. Even when you do achieve that oil tight seal, you can be sure that oil will leach out from the top of the bearing and gradually spread across the top surface of the chassis....well it does in my case.

Greg
Perhaps a new felt ring may help Greg?

User avatar
Dave the bass
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 10635
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 4:36 pm
Location: NW Kent, Darn Sarf innit.

Post by Dave the bass » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:31 pm

Ali Tait wrote: Perhaps a new felt ring may help Greg?
Image

DTB
Last edited by Dave the bass on Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dirt eating, low-voltage boy but "'Occasionally phenomenal'"

User avatar
Greg
Shed dweller
Posts: 2563
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 11:14 am
Location: Bristol, UK

Post by Greg » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:48 pm

Ali Tait wrote:Perhaps a new felt ring may help Greg?
No Ali, I don't think it will and actually we are not looking for a solution on this. It's 1950/60/70's engineering and at that time, oil loss or seepage was considered satisfactory. In any case, my felt ring is reasonably new. The felt ring is porous, the bearing is not oil tight at the top and so seepage is to be expected, and such seepage is a healthy indication that the bearing is well lubricated, provided you service as I have suggested regularly, depending on your frequency of TT use.

DTB, your link did not load for me and I suspect for others although I anticipate it was typical DTB wicked response :wink:
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
Douglas Adams (HHGTTG)

User avatar
Ali Tait
Social outcast
Posts: 3417
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:10 pm
Location: Dunfermline

Post by Ali Tait » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:57 am

Ok, I'm going to replace mine whilst I've got the deck in bits, might as well.

How often do you service the bearing?

User avatar
Greg
Shed dweller
Posts: 2563
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 11:14 am
Location: Bristol, UK

Post by Greg » Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:15 pm

Ali Tait wrote:How often do you service the bearing?
I dismantle, and relube my bearing once a year. This is probably overkill considering the use the TT gets, but I suppose on average it gets used about 6-8 hours every week. I have to compete with the Mrs and her TV which shares the room. I also have periods when I really get into my CD collection and the TT gets a couple of weeks rest. I'm sure as a rule of thumb, an annual service which only takes half an hour to do is more than enough, but useful if you are fitting the phosphor bronze ball bearing thrust pad in order to monitor wear of the ball surface.
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
Douglas Adams (HHGTTG)

User avatar
Paul Barker
No idea why I do this anymore
Posts: 6909
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:42 pm

Post by Paul Barker » Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:39 pm

Remind me Greg what is standard?

I don't have grease bearing but 301 oil bearing. Does that have a bearing in it? or is it a round profiled bottom on the shaft which sits on a thrust bearing? I haven't dismantled it.

Has anyone just tried a Teflon thrust bearing yet?
I can do it right or I can do it now, but I can't do it right now.

User avatar
Greg
Shed dweller
Posts: 2563
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 11:14 am
Location: Bristol, UK

Post by Greg » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:12 pm

Hi Paul,

Your 301 oil bearing will be very similar to those fitted later to 401's. I would expect your bearing housing has two sintered phosphor bronze rings at the top and bottom of the bearing shaft, interference fitted to the bearing outer. Your spindle should have a flat base and that will rotate on an oiled phosphor bronze domed thrust plate. In normal service, the base of the spindle does not wear, but the dome of the phosphor bronze thrust pad can develop a flat at its pinnacle. This flat can be serviced with the careful use of needle files and very fine abrasive paper to re-dome it. Alternatively, you can go for a thrust plate bearing upgrade as discussed above. Original bearing tolerances are pretty slack. Those who advocate thin oils like sowing machine oil or their apparent special oils are, in my view exploiting a 'snake oil' argument. Sloppy bearings need oil with sufficiently thick viscosity. Some also argue that the oil should not contain additives used in the automotive industry. IMO, that is complete bollocks. What additives within the likes of Mobil 1 are going to do anything detrimental to a Garrard spindle bearing? The metal it connects with is no different to that it connects with in any internal combustion engine.

Darren (slatedeck) produced upgraded bearings with more closely toleranced bearing sleeves, but current suppliers don't appear to offer this service. Furthermore, Darren advised me that he did not use a conventional oil, but rather, a lubricating gel. I have one of his spindle bearings and it works very well. Because of his product secrecy, I have no idea what the gel he used is, so, having received and used it, I've been reluctant to open it up and get inside. Doing so could compromise the lubricant and I might not be able to service it without help from Darren. For several years now despite email and telephone attempts, he has been incommunicado. I know he is your friend so you might have more luck getting through to him.

One word of warning, some Garrard bearings were fitted with steel bearing sleeves to the outer housing. This, I think was late production so your 301 should not be affected. These hard sleeves cause wear to the side of the spindle. It has been suggested that these damaging sleeves have been fitted by after market service providers. Personally, I don't think that is the case as there have been far to many reports of this for it to be attributed to an after market service company. I think when Garrard were coming to the end of their days, they cut corners on component quality, no doubt under pressure from their owning company and the introduction of this steel bearing was, unfortunately part of that cut back.

North West Analogue is a good company to deal with if you need refurbishment. You may have met proprietors Dominic Harper and partner Natalie at Owston a couple of events ago.

http://www.northwestanalogue.com/index.html

Greg
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
Douglas Adams (HHGTTG)

User avatar
Paul Barker
No idea why I do this anymore
Posts: 6909
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:42 pm

Post by Paul Barker » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:41 pm

Thanks. Yes I do have coms with Darren he may have access to the lube but I am not sure. But I would completely understand if he prefers to have nothing to do with supplying anything publicly. That doesn't mean I won't manage to get some for you.
I can do it right or I can do it now, but I can't do it right now.

Post Reply