Fane 15" full range speaker

Dedicated to those large boxes at one end of the room
Cressy Snr
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#16 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Cressy Snr »

Let me refer you guys once more to the in-room response for the 12, with wall placement with speakers facing down the room
This is a real world situation and it looks great to me.

Image

The sound backs up that FR chart.
Don't know what else I can do to convince.

Fane themselves suggest 75L sealed with sub support for very low bass. They make the drivers and judging by the way they perform in my own room, I see no reason to doubt their comments.
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#17 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Scottmoose »

An interesting driver indeed. Assuming no damping, a 0.707 Qtc Butterworth alignment (lowest possible F3, aka maximally flat) is roughly 9,800 litres or 346 cubic feet assuming a simple sealed box without damping. With average damping, that will drop of course; about 9,100 litres or 321 cubic feet would be typical.

That's for a 0.707 Qtc alignment though, which is on the absolute lowest limit for the Fane, given its inherent Qts is 0.7 (0.699) and system Q cannot be lower than driver Q. Back down on planet Earth, since a pair of 300+ cubic foot boxs isn't going to happen, kicking Qtc up to 1.0 yeilds a rather more managable 182 litres (nearly) sans damping, and about 159 litres with the walls lagged or a low density of stuffing in the box. Pushing Qtc up still further to the nominal ~1.2 of an LS3/5a you're on about 100 litres, give or take. The driver just happens to have a radiating area about 10x larger and a resonant frequency about 37% higher than the KEF B110. I wouldn't want to draw any analogies in behaviour between them though. Suffice it to say, it can be done, depending on your goals.

At the risk of sounding like an interfering gibbon, I would probably be inclined to make a cheap test box in advance before building them into the room as it's much easier to make adjustments & establish the preferred tuning that way than it is when they're in a permanent / semi-permanent installation. That's how they always did it with custom Altec installations, as it saved effort in the long run, and if it's good enough for Altec...
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#18 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by chris661 »

Just FWIW...

The mid-high response looks like it ought to level out off-axis, which is probably how these drivers are intended to be used. Put them in some 15" cabinets on stands above head height (PA situation), and everyone is off-axis anyway.

With regards to the bass response in different enclosures, I wouldn't worry too much. I recently did some measurements in a room where there was a 10dB peak at 40Hz. It made small speakers sound big, and big speakers sound ugly. When the room effects are of that order of magnitude, a couple of dB here and there at the simulation stage aren't a big deal IMO. If it was mine, I'd want some EQ to help get the low end into shape once the room response is factored in.

Go to it, Steve, and let us know how you get on.

Chris
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#19 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Scottmoose »

Quite. Rooms dominate < 300Hz so there's some alignment flexibility providing major peaking (especially if high Q) is avoided.
Last edited by Scottmoose on Sat May 12, 2018 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#20 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Cressy Snr »

As I said previously, the response graph above shows how they work in my room.
Pulled out from the walls, the bass is hopeless, but given some room gain, by the wall placement, they kick some butt.
They are not bass monsters as I have also said. You can't have high efficiency, sealed cabs that size and sub bass. It simply ain't gonna happen. That is a compromise I am prepared to accept. Put them in corners and the bass gets even better.

My design philosophy is or should be well enough known by now. Speakers out in the room are not on my radar so I always look for box alignments that lack bass, so that room gain can be made to work to boost them in that department.

Now I've passed this way before; 42 years ago in fact when I, at the age of 18, was messing with sealed cabs, big paper cone bass units like the Baker Major without the aid of TS parameters. The recent semi omni stuff was a diversion I needed to explore and it proved to be controversial, attracting open hostility from some quarters because of its association with a cantankerous old git (nice chap really) on HFS. But I made the damn things work.

I'm now back to what I was doing years ago and the results from more modern drivers are even better than those old experiments. It all depends on what you want out of a speaker. The recently completed Fane 12" cabinets, are great, with a wonderful "live" sound to them, without the boof boof bass. I'd completely forgotten how good sealed box bass is, but it is far removed from what modern listeners expect bass to sound like.
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Cressy Snr
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#21 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Cressy Snr »

BTW,
Anyone passing near me is welcome to come and hear the 12s. You might get a pleasant surprise.
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Sat May 12, 2018 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#22 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Scottmoose wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 10:42 pm An interesting driver indeed. Assuming no damping, a 0.707 Qtc Butterworth alignment (lowest possible F3, aka maximally flat) is roughly 9,800 litres or 346 cubic feet assuming a simple sealed box without damping. With average damping, that will drop of course; about 9,100 litres or 321 cubic feet would be typical.

That's for a 0.707 Qtc alignment though, which is on the absolute lowest limit for the Fane, given its inherent Qts is 0.7 (0.699) and system Q cannot be lower than driver Q. Back down on planet Earth, since a pair of 300+ cubic foot boxs isn't going to happen, kicking Qtc up to 1.0 yeilds a rather more managable 182 litres (nearly) sans damping, and about 159 litres with the walls lagged or a low density of stuffing in the box. Pushing Qtc up still further to the nominal ~1.2 of an LS3/5a you're on about 100 litres, give or take. The driver just happens to have a radiating area about 10x larger and a resonant frequency about 37% higher than the KEF B110. I wouldn't want to draw any analogies in behaviour between them though. Suffice it to say, it can be done, depending on your goals.

At the risk of sounding like an interfering gibbon, I would probably be inclined to make a cheap test box in advance before building them into the room as it's much easier to make adjustments & establish the preferred tuning that way than it is when they're in a permanent / semi-permanent installation. That's how they always did it with custom Altec installations, as it saved effort in the long run, and if it's good enough for Altec...
What has that load of bollocks got to do with music?
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#23 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Scottmoose »

Just so, Steve, but I don't think anybody is talking about sub bass or bass extension. Just the alignment & the shape thereof. Nor is anybody being negative as far as I can see, so you don't need to feel defensive; we're simply discussing sealed box speakers & their related characteristics, which your existing & forthcoming build has inspired. Large drivers in sealed boxes were a favoured approach in the '50s - '60s, and sealed boxes remain extremely popular today -Avalon, Dynaudio & many others use them in the commercial field & they are very popular with DIYers also, in a wide variety of forms due to their well-known characteristics.
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#24 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by pre65 »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 11:19 pm
What has that load of bollocks got to do with music?
It's not bollocks at all Richard.

It's about getting things right so that music can be appreciated.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

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#25 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Scottmoose »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 11:19 pm What has that load of bollocks got to do with music?
When I'm addressing you, you'll know it. I was chatting with my friend Steve. If you wish to write personal abuse at me, please do so elsewhere and do not disrupt Steve's interesting project thread.
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Cressy Snr
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#26 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Cressy Snr »

Scottmoose wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 11:21 pm Just so, Steve, but I don't think anybody is talking about sub bass or bass extension. Just the alignment & the shape thereof. Nor is anybody being negative as far as I can see, so you don't need to feel defensive; we're simply discussing sealed box speakers & their related characteristics, which your existing & forthcoming build has inspired. Large drivers in sealed boxes were a favoured approach in the '50s - '60s, and sealed boxes remain extremely popular today -Avalon, Dynaudio & many others use them in the commercial field & they are very popular with DIYers also, in a wide variety of forms due to their well-known characteristics.
Not being defensive Scott. The written word doesn't show the person unfortunately. I know what you're getting at re the alignment and yes, there is a danger of artificial punch or "setting the room off" problems being added at the expense of an even response, due to high Q, but in practice, I found all those years ago that it was nothing to worry about. Indeed, it was in fact the smaller sealed speakers that suffered from the boom and tizz problem, rather than the big ones. When I discovered this it seemed completely counter intuitive, but my understanding was not as well developed as it is now.

I found that the bigger the box and the bigger the driver, the less the problem manifested itself. In those days I damped the cab walls of the large boxes with car door sound deadening bitumen panels. These days I brace them, you get the same effect, but the musical details are better portrayed than with the gunk damped cabs.

I'm actually going back to the large sealed box 1960s type with these projects and enjoying rediscovering the sound of the old days. You ought to hear what these do for 60s music. Dusty, Sandie, Lulu, Cilla and Petula never sounded better :D
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Sat May 12, 2018 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#27 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Scottmoose »

Oh, I know it, Steve. I've designed & worked with plenty of similar types over the past few years. Mostly commissions for AN drivers, as they were the only large widebanders available for a while other than some hybrid Eminence units, although I'd take the Fanes over those any day.

Ain't that the truth. Chucking mass at a bass box is about the worst possible thing you can do, unless you happen to like listening to a load of low-level time-smeared energy. Some do, so I gather, but if it makes them happy, good luck to them.

Right, this can be the issue with little speakers; depends on the specifics of the drivers & the implementation of course. Something like a Kan is a good example; it's actually a high Q box alignment & peaking HF. Without any attention given to the driver dispersion, that's the ultimate squawking box done to perfection. ;) Same with a lot of others, so as you pushed the box size up for a given driver, so the alignment became better damped (Q dropped) & it all started to behave. Basic law of acoustics & cabinet size: up to a point, bigger is better. Look at the old Jensen, Altec, RCA & Bozak boxes (to name but a few) -same thing. :)

Qtc of 1.2 isn't high per se, as noted. Higher than some, but if you ignore the overshoot (overstated in many cases given what rooms do), you can have some interesting results with large boxes (that being the caveat); target the right alignment & baffle size & the former can help cancel out losses from the latter in the upper bass / lower midband. A 15in driver moves into the right region, particularly with near-boundary loading, which is one reason for the sizing of some of the classic boxes of this type from the early '60s.
Last edited by Scottmoose on Sat May 12, 2018 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#28 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Scottmoose wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 11:28 pm
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 11:19 pm What has that load of bollocks got to do with music?
When I'm addressing you, you'll know it. I was chatting with my friend Steve. If you wish to write personal abuse at me, please do so elsewhere and do not disrupt Steve's interesting project thread.
So this is not a public forum, if you wish your conversations to be private and not commented on do it by PM, that is what it is there for.

I am still waiting to hear what that load of bollocks has to do with music. Take one of your statements and apply it to a piece of music you are listening to, what does it do - or is this process just to show us how clever you think you are.
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#29 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Scottmoose »

I'm not interested Richard. I am not interested in your attempts at baiting, nor your opinions, nor your attempts to make Steve's thread about them. What you are trying to do will not work. I will not discuss audio with you, period. You can make whatever you like of that statement; ignore it, go off and claim you have 'won' something, or anything else that strikes your fancy. I do not care, have absolutely nothing to prove to you or anyone else, and will continue speaking with my friends and people I wish to, in the manner I wish to.
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#30 Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Steve talks about music, he has explained *with music ref* what his speakers are about and what they do. He has done it here and at HFS and has gained a lot of respect because of it. If he can do it why can't you, I still haven't got a clue how what you said refers to music, it is just gobble de gook.

In fact I have never seen you talk about music, do you actually listen to any.

Whether you care about what I say is meaningless, but the same as you were not talking to me directly, I am talking about you and what you say, not particularly interested in talking to you directly as in my opinion you are beyond hope. Completely lost the point of the process, you are a classic example of what is wrong with the loudspeaker design industry, where as Steve is a classic example with what he does of someone who has found that out.
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