A Question of Right and Wrong.

Dedicated to those large boxes at one end of the room
User avatar
Greg
Social outcast
Posts: 3198
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 11:14 am
Location: Bristol, UK

#46 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Greg »

Cressy Snr wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:47 am We can fool ourselves all we like, with our several grand systems in our soundproofed, treated listening rooms but the simple fact of the matter is, that if out of our family, it is only we, who listen to our system and our other halves/kids, relatives treat it with bored indifference or contempt, then said system is not playing music..... end of.
No, this is far too simplistic. There are numerous reasons why your scenario might exist. One simply being no actual appreciation of any kind of music per se. Not everyone has your idealistic domestic music environment and for some of us, it is much a way of finding a balance that is reasonable and acceptable to all in that same place.
User avatar
Nick
Site Admin
Posts: 15706
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 10:20 am
Location: West Yorkshire

#47 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Nick »

Yep, I agree Greg, thats just a pair of strawmen arguments that just happen to agree with Steve’s situation and goal, doesn’t make them universal.
Whenever an honest man discovers that he's mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or he will cease to be honest.
Cressy Snr
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 10552
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 12:25 am
Location: South Yorks.

#48 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Cressy Snr »

Nah Greg, simplistic is the last thing it is.
Simplistic implies lack of intellectual rigour. Simplistic implies a certain narrow-mindedness/ blinkered outlook on the part of of the alleged simpleton; the very thing Romy was on about in his own Doc like style, and like the Doc, he brought out the pitchfork brigade, which to my eternal shame included me.....never again.

Both the subjective andthe objective arguments about the relative merits of loudspeakers are wrong. Music is far too deep a concept to be captured by that kind of pigeonholing exercise.
Objectivity, relying on measurements cannot produce equipment that plays music, and subjectivity is little more than a cop out, that lays people wide open to suggestion by bullshitters and marketing types.

I don't have the answer and I certainly don't have some kind of idealised listening environment as you put it. There's nothing universal about any of my arguments, they are just another approach to the problem of reproducing music in the home, better than a transistor radio can. The approach I choose however is completely at odds with most enthusiasts' attitudes to hi-fi, even those of the Doc (albeit he is nearer than most) Because of that I've put myself out on a limb, only this time, for the first time, it doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sgt. Baker started talkin’ with a Bullhorn in his hand.
User avatar
andrew Ivimey
Social Sevices have been notified
Posts: 8307
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:33 am
Location: Bedford

#49 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by andrew Ivimey »

I've just read through the stream and I'm limited by using a little phone but several things come to mind.

I'm unclear about our usage of 'music,'

From my professional PoV I am not sure we all hear the same. Even without a physical or neuro-physical difficulty doubtful. But I agree wholeheartedly with anyone who suggests that we listen very differently to one another. This is what I thought was ambiguous about me mentioning the grey in between. In a second sense I was talking about our grey matter between our ears.

Here's an example that I don't think has been touched upon. One enduring memory of my mum was finding her sitting in the sun with a portable cd player in her lap and a pair of cheap ear buds. She was in a very joyful state singing along to a Bruckner symphony . Over the years my mum was subjected to e.g. quad esl57, and even ls35as.she was not interested.

Further , one that is a continuing interest, the vast number of musicians I know who are very happy to listen to music on anything, typically a commercial midi system. They have no interest in our peculiar world of boxes and devices.

Further again even when severely deaf, wearing big headphones transfixed and excited by the closing bars of Dvorak's Rusalka where there is a complex resolve to a crescendo etc etc. A lifetime of music from copying musical scores for his dad to constant hammering out beethoven and scarlet time on the piano, involvement with bands and orchestras right up to his first stroke gave him a profound auditory memory so he could just read the score and hear the music in his grey matter.,

I'll leave furthest for another time but let's just think about...if someone did get it right; his/her speakers were objectively the very best. For many reasons there would still not be concensus.
Philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point, however, is to change it. No it isn't ... maybe we should leave it alone for a while.
Daniel Quinn
Old Hand
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:19 am

#50 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Daniel Quinn »

4 pages and numerous people arguing with different definitions at cross purposes .

Right for whom , wrong for whom. What is right : accurate , musical , affordable , preference ?

Hifi is by and large a solipsistic experience and purchases are undertaken by and large singularly. As such any notion of right and wrong is potentially bollocks if you are trying to objectivise a purely subjective personal preference . Is it analogous to me saying Genesis are the best group ever and you lot coming on here telling me I am moron , which is fun , but it is also meaningless .

if this is your argument . there is one issue that Nick highlights , in that are all opinions to be treated equally. if it is purely a subjective matter and of little or no consequence , there is no problem with a clash of ideas and all ideas retaining equal validity. After all I can live with the fact some people like Classical music ,even though it is shite .

Thus the question is: Is speaker design simply a matter of personal preference and if it is not , why and how should it be elevated to an issue in which the words right and wrong have any meaning .
chris661
Shed dweller
Posts: 2556
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:29 am
Location: Sheffield

#51 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by chris661 »

... and there was me going to mention about the shape of our ears giving slightly different frequency response vs angle variations at the eardrum.
Cressy Snr wrote: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:53 pm I think Nick that as you all know, my "problem" is that I am not a rock fan by any stretch of the imagination and they made every one of my soul and disco records sound like they were being played through a megaphone six inches from my ears.
Black male tenor voices such as Levi Stubbs of the Four Tops and females such as Aretha Franklin at full pelt were not pleasant.
Steve, you've got a PM about this.


From what I've seen, there are two camps of speaker design. One is the "they are here" approach, where the musicians sound like they're in your room. They tend to feature wide dispersion, incorporating your room acoustics into the sounds you hear. The other is the "you are there" approach, where there tends to be very controlled directivity so that your room doesn't impose itself much, so you're effectively hearing the recorded ambience of the venue.

There's a scale of speaker designs for these purposes. At one end, there's omnidirectional speakers, and then you go through direct-radiating traditional HiFi speakers, through to fairly-controlled directivity (OBs, some horns), and then at the other end would be synergy horns.

For close-mic'd, dry recordings, I think the "they are here" approach works best. For recordings with more ambience already in there (concert halls etc), something with controlled directivity would better recreate that ambience.

If you asked some HiFi people whether they want "you are there" or "they are here", I'm sure you'd get a mixture of responses, with "both" being common but ultimately difficult to do without two sets of speakers.

Chris
User avatar
cressy
Shed dweller
Posts: 2906
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:07 pm
Location: the great white space
Contact:

#52 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by cressy »

I have a dab radio in the kitchen. Its on all day every day. It provides enjoyment, probably more than the system does.

The system gets switched on maybe twice, 3 times a week for maybe a couple of hours.

I find myself trawling through iTunes trying to find something to listen to, standing infront of the cd racks on the wall willing myself to pick one, or playing the same records over and over again. Put simply, i cant be bothered with all the palaver any more.
Edit: I have to be in the mood to be bothered with the palaver.
I stick the radio on, stand infront if the sink washing pots, or infront of the cooker making dinner and sing along with whats on. Turn it up when certain records come on.

Actually sing. If thats not enjoying it I dont know what is. I very rarely find myself singing along with the system. So does that mean that it was all for nothing and what I have built is crap?

This discussion suggests that as bono said, I still haven't found what im looking for, otherwise I would be singing along with the main system, and rather than switching on the radio.

Define 'music', is it individual to the individual? What if someone tells me that they hear music, but i dont, i hear a collection of sounds in a sequence?
Is it then irrelevant because I dont hear what they hear?
There is no spoon
Cressy Snr
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 10552
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 12:25 am
Location: South Yorks.

#53 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Cressy Snr »

Chris, you have a PM

Enjoy... :shock:
Sgt. Baker started talkin’ with a Bullhorn in his hand.
User avatar
pre65
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 21373
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: North Essex/Suffolk border.

#54 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by pre65 »

By the way Daniel Quinn,

I do find your posts (in general) a touch sesquipedalian. :lol:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
Daniel Quinn
Old Hand
Posts: 859
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:19 am

#55 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by Daniel Quinn »

pre65 wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:01 am By the way Daniel Quinn,

I do find your posts (in general) a touch sesquipedalian. :lol:
it would appear to be disease , ask your GP for some CBT.

Or try this little trick - before posting ask yourself 3 questions

1] What is the purpose of this post
2] does the post have a point in respect of the thread
3] Are the point and purpose valid and worth making.

If I may be so bold , if we apply these questions to your last post

1] humour
2] no
3] no

as meat loaf said 2 out 3 aint bad , but 1?
User avatar
andrew Ivimey
Social Sevices have been notified
Posts: 8307
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:33 am
Location: Bedford

#56 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by andrew Ivimey »

Is that the chap who used '....subliminal semiotic.....' I chuckled. ' ..classical music is shite.....' I laughed. The spirit of Doc.B -let'someone not forget the mudshark.

Why does it matter so much? We could be arguing about bikes , cars, football teams or even watches.

I try in my own way to improve things hi-fi wise but there will always be, even to my own humble opinion, better hi-fi systems than anything I have.

Thinking about All Along the Watchtower, and we're not talking Jehovah here, it's a track I've probably heard on more diverse systems than almost any other track (Bitches Brew, kinda Blue...) It is exciting on Ls35as, the two Scott's designs I have home built or sheeesh cheap wharfdales. My choice would be something BIGGER, DYNAMIC & unfortunately expensive but there I am at the kitchen sink or right where I ought to be when concentrating on the music. I am amazed how plastic and forgiving my hearing is. Listening is complicated, an active process.

Why do I find musicians don't seem to mind very much what they listen to music on?
Why can someone listening to a tiny personal player or listen whilst doing the washing up feel happy and joyful if there is really only one worthwhile quest, to find the one true loudspeaker
&
and then abuse and or bash anyone on the head who disagrees with them and their mates?
Philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point, however, is to change it. No it isn't ... maybe we should leave it alone for a while.
User avatar
pre65
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 21373
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: North Essex/Suffolk border.

#57 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by pre65 »

A touch of humour is always worthwhile dear boy. :lol:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
User avatar
pre65
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 21373
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: North Essex/Suffolk border.

#58 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by pre65 »

One of our esteemed members once said "if I can't listen to music on my system, I'd rather not listen to music at all".

But I can listen to music and get enjoyment almost anywhere, like the car or even supermarkets.

We had a beetle drive in the village hall last week, and in the corner was a crappy old portable CD player with built in speakers. During the evening it was belting out Beatles hits, and everyone (me included) was singing along.

The sound was rubbish, but the essence was there, enough to actually enjoy.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
User avatar
andrew Ivimey
Social Sevices have been notified
Posts: 8307
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:33 am
Location: Bedford

#59 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by andrew Ivimey »

Me or him...just who are you patronising here Phil!?

Anyway, I do ask my questions above in all seriousness. This thread began as a question and I would like to know more, chew over some and, I hope, find some more answers that will do until next time.

There will be a 'next time' I am sure.
Philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point, however, is to change it. No it isn't ... maybe we should leave it alone for a while.
User avatar
pre65
Amstrad Tower of Power
Posts: 21373
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: North Essex/Suffolk border.

#60 Re: A Question of Right and Wrong.

Post by pre65 »

andrew Ivimey wrote: Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:04 am Me or him...just who are you patronising here Phil!?
Hi Andrew, I didn't think I was patronising anyone. :oops:

But, whatever it was, was defo not aimed at you. :)
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

G-Popz THE easy listening connoisseur. (Philip)
Post Reply