Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

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Cressy Snr
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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Cressy Snr » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:32 pm

Yes, it’s a nice shape.
Put them on their sides and you’ve got a pair of floor monitors for gigging too. Or is it all earpieces these days? :mrgreen:
Joking aside, the 12-250-TC is a bloody good driver.

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by chris661 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:21 am

It varies a bit. Bands that tour with all their own gear usually have in-ear monitors. My stages are usually full of wedges - if they're hiring me, they don't have their own gear.
The stage monitors I use the most are 8" coaxials - at close range, a couple of hundred watts into one of those is plenty for vocal reinforcement. Drummers usually want to really feel the kick (which an 8" coax will not do), so I'm working on something to address that.

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Cressy Snr » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:54 pm

So I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about the sound of these speakers, since Owston.

That they have a rising response is not in dispute and it normally doesn’t bother me, as my small room enables me to sit in the near field at around 30 deg off axis. Large rooms where you can’t get far enough off axis in the far field, give a piercing presentation to say the least, which is exactly what happens at Owston and in any large room such as Steve S’s. This is a bit crap really, as it limits their application in the domestic environment, to the smaller room, which is a pity, because the driver is one of the best widebanders I’ve ever heard.

Much measuring later I have traced the source of the on-axis peakiness to the larger of the two whizzers and I have found a nice way to reduce the large whizzer’s output relative to the small, central treble whizzer and thus even out the upper mid to treble transition to convert the driver from PA to domestic hi-fi use. The method does not involve doping, sticking things to the whizzers or otherwise adulterating the driver.

I just added a second grille behind the first. This secondary grille is of a much closer weave than the front, Fender tweed style cloth, and has a small, vertical slit cut into its centre, so that the hole resembles the pupil of a cat’s eye. This arrangement attenuates acoustically, the larger whizzer, whilst allowing the HF coming from the small, central whizzer to pass unimpeded.

The net result is a rebalancing of the driver’s frequency response, from ‘cut through’ PA towards a more benign domestic audio presentation and it works beautifully. I’m well pleased with the results. The nice thing also is that the cat’s eye lens is completely invisible.
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Cressy Snr » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:29 pm

Listening impressions are that the imaging has improved dramatically. Central vocal positioning is precise and free of vagueness, and overall positioning of instruments across the stereo stage is much more tightly defined. Midband detail is astonishingly good, with subtle details far easier to hear than before. Because the upper mid frequency balance has been pulled flatter, bass is now better balanced relative to the rest of the audible range and so we get a better idea of what bass instruments are doing. The same increase in clarity applies to the treble range too, as the upper mids are no longer swamping HF details.

What we have here, is a significant improvement in the quality of the music coming out of these drivers, and it has been achieved without eq or DSP. Not that eq or DSP are bad things, but this cat’s eye secondary grille method is both cheaper and quite effective.

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Cressy Snr » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:57 am

Below, is a simple representation of the secondary grille I placed behind the front Fender cloth:
C256D796-F957-448A-84C2-FC807FF6DA25.jpeg
The white area represents the secondary grille fabric, which is a dark brown, commercially available speaker cloth.
The cat’s pupil aperture is simply the hole I cut in the centre of the cloth. Nothing new in this method; all been done before.

Interestingly, though not a totally unexpected effect of the muting of the large whizzer, is an increase in dynamic contrasts and leading edge speed. As I alluded to in the last post; the central HF whizzer gets to contribute more to the presentation because it is not being shouted down by the big whizzer, to the same degree as it was without the secondary fabric in place. So we get a commensurate increase in leading edge speed, due to less upper mid muddle, being around to muck up the higher registers.

Also we can’t discount the alteration to the horizontal vs vertical HF dispersion characteristics of the driver system itself, brought about by the cat’s eye aperture. There are a couple of mechanisms at work here.

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Toppsy » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:51 pm

.............. the driver is one of the best widebanders I’ve ever heard.
I think you need to get out more Steve.
............….and it has been achieved without eq or DSP. Not that eq or DSP are bad things, but this cat’s eye secondary grille method is both cheaper and quite effective.
Well not wishing to be pedantic Steve but DSP and Eq in essence do the same and what you have done is no different to these forms of fine tuning speakers, it's just that you have attempted to do it mechanically whereas the others do the same thing but electronically. To add extra damping is nothing new and is a well known and tried mechanical method to fine tune speakers, though I must say that in this instance a electronic solution would be my preference and probably will give a far superior end result and if done correctly will only address the rising treble response which is a big issue with these drivers.

I must say though that the image you posted above looks remarkably similar to Saurons eye (LOTR). Spooky!

Image

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Cressy Snr » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:00 pm

Nothing has been added to the driver itself; just two different grilles - one behind the other, so nothing in terms of the driver itself is being damped.

Also I did acknowledge that there is nothing new in what I did to said grilles. Everything’s been done before.
In my view there’s a lot of mileage to be re-trod in the art of “grille engineering” in the context of single full-range drivers.

Also IMV, there’s little point in eq’ ing the hell out of single drivers with DSP; been there, done that, and though I got a perfect measured response in-room, half the music had vanished. You might as well build a three way multiple driver system, if you want a proper hi-fi rather than some triple coned, single driver, hairy-arsed, domestic PA system like wot I’ve got! :lol: :lol:

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Ant » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:18 pm

Deleted as pointless
Last edited by Ant on Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Cressy Snr » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:38 pm

Now I’ve had to delete my reply :lol:

Anyway, the point is that we all like different things. Scott and Colin dislike the sound of my Fane driver based speakers. They are entitled to their opinion and I don’t mind, because they don’t live with them, I do. To me, the Fane FR drivers (both the 12 and the 15 inch) make music sound alive and human.
Toppsy wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:51 pm

I think you need to get out more Steve.
BTW Colin, I really don’t see the necessity for those sorts of put downs.
I’m only presenting ideas, reporting on what I find out - nothing more. Not expecting to convert anyone to the single driver cause. I don’t have the money to go all over the country listening to every Voxativ, Rethm and Maxxonic monster.

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by steve s » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:58 am

Cressy Snr wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:00 pm


Also IMV, there’s little point in eq’ ing the hell out of single drivers with DSP; been there, done that, and though I got a perfect measured response in-room, half the music had vanished.
I totally agree there Steve. I remember replacing one of my Lowthers quite a few years ago to find the new one had an enormous peak, I experimented in a similar way with some wadding behind the grill, it made them listenable after that, until they ran in and smoothed out.
I hear so many dsp'd systems at the wam show. I can understand why people do it and some get really good results. But there is always a level of 'somethings missing' from the sound
The tube manual is quite like a telephone book. The number of it perfect. It is useful to make it possible to speak with a girl. But we can't see her beautiful face from the telephone number

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by ed » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:12 am

steve s wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:58 am
But there is always a level of 'somethings missing' from the sound
after quite a few years of messing with dsp I've come to that conclusion as well.
but I don't suppose it stops it being a useful tool in some areas.
There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Cressy Snr » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:08 pm

ed wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:12 am
steve s wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:58 am
But there is always a level of 'somethings missing' from the sound
after quite a few years of messing with dsp I've come to that conclusion as well.
but I don't suppose it stops it being a useful tool in some areas.
Aye, It was your good self who warned me about the potential sonic pitfalls of DSP, a good few years ago, when I was trying to get rid of a 7KHz peak coming from the Fostex FF225WK widebanders in my big Mets. And of course you were right :)

I eventually sorted the Fostex drivers, without losing the music, by using a ring of Black-Tac at the voice coil/dust-cap junction.

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Cressy Snr » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:38 pm

OK, here is a pic of the bit of grille engineering I did behind the front Fender Tweed cloth:

Image

As we can see, there are three grilles in total (including the front cloth)
The larger of the two auxillary grilles has a bigger cat's eye than the smaller circle, so the
two eyes are concentric with each other. Works a treat :)

Should work nicely for other be-whizzered drivers, though the apertures would need to be scaled accordingly.
It may be old school acoustic filtering technology but it has proven very effective.
I can blast the Fanes now, with no fear of earache, which means that the scale of big classical works can now be enjoyed at concert levels, providing the neighbours are out. :wink:

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Cressy Snr » Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:15 pm

Here’s a bit of measurement for anyone interested:
Below we have the pink noise analysis response from 12 months ago, taken sans grilles.
Image
It’s only 3rd octave; nevertheless, the coarser resolution is sufficient to see the rising overall response, and peaks at 4K and 8K can be seen. These are what I reckon annoyed Scott so much, especially the 8K one. Those peaks were almost certainly responsible for the wince inducing piccolos and brass, on Quincy Jones “Soul Bossa Nova” played by Gaz at Owston, through Ali’s Pinnacle OTLs. Also the string recording played by Ray was badly affected by them, I’ll wager.

Now let’s look at the latest 6th octave pink noise, spectrum analysis, taken today, in-room, at 1.5m, centred between the speakers, 10deg off-axis, with the secondary grilles in place. This higher resolution analysis was taken at the same point in the room as the older 3rd octave analysis above.
15FD86B4-15F0-4C14-9A23-081F50BDE1DF.png
Slight bass shelf around the driver/box resonance region, followed by a roll down to 20Hz. Bass sounds even-handed due to lack of narrow band peaking; but then it did before. Next-to-wall loading can be seen working as it should.
Reasonably flat through the presence region, with a slow fall-away at the top end, followed by a steep drop after 12KHz.
I’ve killed a little bit of the very high treble with the secondary grilles, but the increased listening comfort at higher levels is well worth the slight penalty at the treble extremities. The frequency response up tilt is gone, and the improvement in listening pleasure reflects the measurements pretty accurately, I’d say.

Not a bad result for a couple of bits of cloth, some staples and a needle & thread. :)
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:51 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Ant » Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:37 pm

Open the hole up abit on the cats eye for the smallest wizzers by a couple of mil
Hey, wait, I got a new complaint
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