Fane 15" full range speaker

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Cressy Snr
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Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Cressy Snr » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:46 pm

JohnG wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:30 am
I intend on making a pair of these for my wifes living room system.
I will also get the benefit from them as well.
Any further information available to support the methods of cabinet bracing suggested would be appreciated, I'm ripping down 25mm Plywood this week for the boxes.
Hi John,
With a cab of this size I would put in three braces. (five pieces in all)
The first would be a single longitudinal brace, top to bottom of the cabinet. You need to fill it with holes (three inch holesaw is ideal) and offset it by 12.25mm from a top to bottom centre line drawn on the inside of the back panel. Just draw a centre line and put the brace edge on that line. This will give you automatically, the right offset.

Additionally, with the longitudinal brace, you need to make a cutout in it so the driver will go in. The rear of the driver magnet is up against the brace when fitted into the cab. Also take care that the brace does not block the hole in the rear of the magnet.

The vertical brace connects the front, back and top and bottom panels and is the most time consuming to make and fit but it is worth the trouble.

The horizontal braces are much easier. I would make two small ones to fit either of the vertical brace, one running just above the horizontal centre of the driver, above the hole in the magnet and another two half way between the first one and the bottom of the cab. The top two can be six inch wide holey rectangles that run past the rear of the driver without being shaped around it but the bottom ones can be the full depth of the cab, as there is no driver in the way to make things difficult.

That lot should make the cabs rigid and relatively inert.

Hope that helps.
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Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by chris661 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:00 pm

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:54 pm
There are better ways to cure the problem if you are stuck with it, increase mass and stiffness. I can prove it to anyone with an open mind. Though if the speaker was packed full of daft crossover components then nothing would save it (the music).
Changing the mass and/or stiffness of the walls of a cabinet will do nothing to the standing waves that form as a function of the reflections inside a cabinet. This is literally Physics 101. I know this, because I've taken it. You obviously slept through that lecture.

Since you're clearly the expert on all things speaker-design, tell me, how would you go about making a compact PA speaker that's suitable for live music 50 or so people with useful bass extension when mounted on a pole?
I've managed it. Can you?

Chris

PS - Ant, if this is cluttering up your thread, I'll split it off - just say the word.

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:30 pm

Chum - you just want conflict, sorry mate I wont oblige. Show me where I said I am "clearly the expert on all things speaker-design", I have opinions and LOADS of experience. You are absolutely wasting your time quoting physics or charts at me, I will just laugh. There are very few things important in domestic audio design. Your ears, Your brain, Your music, Your room, and that formulates Your opinion. We seem to be at cross purposes unless I am mistaken this forum is about Hi-Fi not pro gear, that is a different set of compromises, and they don't usually see eye to eye IMO.

I am quoting my experience that goes back to working for Acoustic Research (UK) from 1972. My ideas started with trying to find out why the new range designed by new designers after Ed and Roy left and the knob heads in suits from Teledyne took over were relatively so bad. Everything I have done has been on a long learning curve ever since. I have learnt that people try to do too much, they take things for granted (like putting in wadding). There is too much trying to shut the door after the horse (music) has bolted. For once I see someone who is *IMO* getting the balance right in Steve and his Fanes, and before I was going on instinct, now on experience having heard them at Owston, and if they work there they must be good as the place is shit acoustically. Nothing to my ears sounded any good but Steve's corner, even more so when Thermionic's thingy got involved with it. I could have sat there all day listening to it, and apart from the big reds, everything else made me want to leave the room.

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Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Dave the bass » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:19 pm

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:30 pm
unless I am mistaken this forum is about Hi-Fi not pro gear,
You are mistaken.

Have a look at the Forum header. "audio-talk, The place to discuss anything involving sound".
Dirt eating, low-voltage boy but "'Occasionally phenomenal'"

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:49 pm

They don't follow the same rules, so unless you say to which you are referring so the confusion that happened here will happen again. I perfectly understand why he does it his way for pro gear.

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Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by chris661 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:36 am

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:30 pm
Chum - you just want conflict, sorry mate I wont oblige. Show me where I said I am "clearly the expert on all things speaker-design", I have opinions and LOADS of experience. You are absolutely wasting your time quoting physics or charts at me, I will just laugh. There are very few things important in domestic audio design. Your ears, Your brain, Your music, Your room, and that formulates Your opinion. We seem to be at cross purposes unless I am mistaken this forum is about Hi-Fi not pro gear, that is a different set of compromises, and they don't usually see eye to eye IMO.

I am quoting my experience that goes back to working for Acoustic Research (UK) from 1972. My ideas started with trying to find out why the new range designed by new designers after Ed and Roy left and the knob heads in suits from Teledyne took over were relatively so bad. Everything I have done has been on a long learning curve ever since. I have learnt that people try to do too much, they take things for granted (like putting in wadding). There is too much trying to shut the door after the horse (music) has bolted. For once I see someone who is *IMO* getting the balance right in Steve and his Fanes, and before I was going on instinct, now on experience having heard them at Owston, and if they work there they must be good as the place is shit acoustically. Nothing to my ears sounded any good but Steve's corner, even more so when Thermionic's thingy got involved with it. I could have sat there all day listening to it, and apart from the big reds, everything else made me want to leave the room.
I don't want conflict as such, but I do want an explanation of why you think interior panels must be steel-plated (which will cut down on cabinet resonance - a good thing - resonant panels introduce a load of time-smeared energy, which messes up transients), and yet completely neglect all the sound that's going to bounce around inside the cabinet before exiting through the cone (which will introduce a load of time-smeared energy, messing up transients). You're sorting out one, but not the other, while they both have similar effects.

I find the cleanest sound comes when you do both - make the cabinet solid, and apply absorption. That way, you only hear what's coming off the front of the cone without any additional time-delayed mess in the midrange.

With regards to graphs, I think they're very useful when you keep them in context. For instance, I had some horns a while back that sounded very good, except for on one piece of music where a particular vocal hit a particular note and there was a very harsh harmonic - enough to make you wince at normal listening levels. The problem was a very narrow spike at about 7kHz, and getting rid of that spike solved the problem completely. Graphs don't tell you if something sounds good, but they really do help with problem solving.

Chris

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Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:06 pm

There are no explanations beyond your ears and your music, go back to them and you may be surprised at what you change. All I do is use my ears and my music, and it gives me *ways* to do things often involving very lateral thought referred to convention. People have a choice, listen or ignore, do you really think I give a toss which. My pursuit is the pursuit of music and truth *for me*, as has been shown both in the now hundreds of reviews from users at HFS and the 10's of people who have tried my speaker mod ideas, and NONE have gone back and removed the mods, they 99% agree with me. So for me the proof of the pudding is in the eating, everything else is BULLSHIT!

I have a set of speakers here with the mods for loan, do you want to try them.

BTW I have found ceramic tiles to be nearly as good as well, and not so heavy.

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Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by chris661 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:34 pm

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:06 pm
There are no explanations beyond your ears and your music, go back to them and you may be surprised at what you change. All I do is use my ears and my music, and it gives me *ways* to do things often involving very lateral thought referred to convention. People have a choice, listen or ignore, do you really think I give a toss which. My pursuit is the pursuit of music and truth *for me*, as has been shown both in the now hundreds of reviews from users at HFS and the 10's of people who have tried my speaker mod ideas, and NONE have gone back and removed the mods, they 99% agree with me. So for me the proof of the pudding is in the eating, everything else is BULLSHIT!

I have a set of speakers here with the mods for loan, do you want to try them.

BTW I have found ceramic tiles to be nearly as good as well, and not so heavy.
It might be a coincidence, but I (and many others in the professional audio industry) happen to like it when a system is flat, and we'll usually tweak it to get as flat as possible.

The speakers that went to Owston a little while back needed quite a bit of power IIRC, so if you're happy for them to be powered by something fairly large, I'd be interested in a demo set. I'm not going to try to blow them, and will reduce levels if they're sounding stressed in any way.
Full disclosure - there will be measurements. With your permission, I'd also like to see if adding absorption changes much. I have a suspicion that a heavily-doped midbass driver like the ones you use won't allow much sound from inside the cabinet to escape. Thinner/lighter cones will clearly allow much more sound out.

I'll be moving house soon, but will be in touch when that's all done.

Chris

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Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by JohnG » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:38 pm

I,ve just done a cutting list for 25mm Marine Plywood.
The Dimension for the Longitudinal Brace is now on the Plan as 765mm, not the 465mm shown.
I've also changed the hole quantity, worked on the dim of 25mm from the top edge of the brace, with 50mm between the holes, this allows for 6 holes on the longititude. So approx 12 holes in this baffle.
Any corrections to offer, let me know, as I will be cutting tomorrow.
Speaker-Cabinet-Dims.jpg

Cressy Snr
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Re: Fane 15" full range speaker

Post by Cressy Snr » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:58 am

Looks OK to me. :)
Hi-fi used to be exciting and it can be again.

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