Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

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andrew Ivimey
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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by andrew Ivimey » Thu May 24, 2018 10:07 am

Sounds like a very good 'do'. Smashing.

But OTLs I dunno. I've only ever listened to one properly and, thinking on, can't actually remember any others. I built and brought my OTL to the poweerstation, Owston or Witham. I play it from time to time. It's a futterman type amp each side using 7as7s, the input and splitters being ecc82. Very different sound to say my 45pp but who's to say which is better. I dont/ can't. Is OTL really faster sharper? Is 45pp smoother gorgeously mellow, lively with fab soundstage?

I dunno. I'd like to hear Rosenblitt or any many OTLs. Could even compare. Or not. With its copper top plate it is pretty.
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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by andrew Ivimey » Thu May 24, 2018 1:59 pm

6as7 Andrew, 6AS7 ( not only am I using a phone, the sunlight is harsh) I see a few extra thoughts on OTL has come up in Mark's thread. (I'm back in a cool bar nursing a beer)
Philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point, however, is to change it. No it isn't ... maybe we should leave it alone for a while.

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Thu May 24, 2018 7:59 pm

I thought the NVA circuit amp and the A20 were supposed to be in the listening mix yet no one has mentioned it. If you liked it or hated it I really couldn't give shit. I just like the truth not what seems like hidden agendas. Or am I being paranoid.

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Cressy Snr » Thu May 24, 2018 9:06 pm

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 7:59 pm
I thought the NVA circuit amp and the A20 were supposed to be in the listening mix yet no one has mentioned it. If you liked it or hated it I really couldn't give shit. I just like the truth not what seems like hidden agendas. Or am I being paranoid.
No hidden agendas Richard.
The guys wanted to hear their own gear with the speakers and there simply wasn't the time to do everything, within the four hours they were at my place.

The DIYNVA was on when Chris arrived, and starting of with some acapella vocals, he was suitably taken aback, by the singers in the room quality. I did a few bits of smooth jazz and the sort of girl guitar stuff that'll sound good on anything, but I also put on a nasty little challenge, with some Zoot Money and the Big Roll Band from the 60s, just to show that the NVA didn't give a stuff what it was fed. It got right into the middle of the music and teased out all the strands from Zoot's "Big Time Operator" which was a compressed mono recording, typical of the period, raucous vocals on the edge of distortion, and parping brass all present and correct. Think Cliff Bennett and the Rebel Rousers with a rocket up their backsides and you've about got Zoot and his mates. This track can be hellish on the wrong system, but the combination of NVA DIY amp and the big Fanes rendered it sympathetically, without going over into screech.

I don't think Dave heard it as by the time he arrived, the first pro amp was on.

There was no time at all for the standard A20 unfortunately.
Hope that clears things up. There was no deliberate intention to sideline anything; time beat us in the end.
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Thu May 24, 2018 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by chris661 » Thu May 24, 2018 9:15 pm

Steve's memory is better than mine.

IIRC, there wasn't a huge step up or down in quality of any of the amplifiers involved. As I said earlier, the stars for me were the Fane 12"s.

Chris

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Cressy Snr » Thu May 24, 2018 10:11 pm

chris661 wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 9:15 pm
Steve's memory is better than mine.

IIRC, there wasn't a huge step up or down in quality of any of the amplifiers involved. As I said earlier, the stars for me were the Fane 12"s.

Chris
Aye, the things just play music so well, you don't even think about anything to do with hi-fi, bake-offs, comparisons, A/B'ing or any of that stuff. It was difficult to stop and change amps. The speakers were so involving, we just wanted to keep playing records, and once the Anita O'Day followed by the classical went on, that was that; it was music all the way.

A shambles of a bake-off really. You can't trust me in charge of any comparison process if you want scientifically reliable results; that much became very evident on the day. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Thu May 24, 2018 11:04 pm

No problem I had realised that. I just wondered why the resident amp (one of them) wasn't mentioned at all, it just seemed strange.

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Thermionic Idler » Fri May 25, 2018 2:03 pm

I've just read back through the thread and realised I've not really posted my impressions of the different amplifiers properly. Sorry about that, I've not had a great week this week - long story!

The DIY NVA was playing when I arrived so I did get to hear a few tracks with it, but not as many as Chris. I really liked it, there was a nice transparent 'window' onto the music and a good sense of what I think the late Harvey Rosenberg used to call 'wholeosity' - so you're not picking it apart but just listening to the music. I did hear a very slight solid-stage 'edge' with it though, which is something I hear with pretty much all solid state amps, not sure what it is but I seem to be uniquely sensitive to it. That 'edge' increased a little with the Crown amps and I felt the 'wholeosity factor' decreased a bit, although again those were nicely musical and you could really sense the extra power with the transient 'ease'.

I found that with Steve's SET and my own OTL amp, my ears 'relaxed' into the music more. I could have listened to that pink SET all day, DHT's do something that cannot be replicated elsewhere. For me, my own OTL was the best all-rounder - maybe that's just because I'm used to the sound of it.
I'm hugely relieved frankly as I've sunk a lot so far into the build of the more powerful monoblock versions - it's basically the same output stage design but replicated for greater power, coupled to a lower impedance driver stage with separated power supplies.

What's been quite interesting for me though is that despite preferring valve power amps overall, I heard a significant improvement in my system when moving from a well regarded Modwright valve linestage to my current AMB scratch-build, which uses Op-amps - everything became so much more transparent but interestingly there was none of the 'edge' I hear on solid state power amps (though I don't know how much of that was down to the stepped relay attenuator). Same thing occurred when I went to a solid state phono stage, ditching the MC step-up transformers along the way. So for my own system, I'm finding that the optimum combination seems to be solid state for the small signal stuff, ensuring a good low-impedance drive for the power amps, and valves in the power amps themselves. But that's just me. Any system is doing its job well if the listener enjoys it - that's what matters.
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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by DSJR » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:49 pm

Things have moved on, but I wanted to clear the air a bit with Steve if I may and apologise again for the way I sometimes appear to come over on forums.

Remember when I mentioned getting a reference speaker of some kind to help prevent you 'playing' with tweeter levels (I know, you've gone WELL beyond that now and I never ever thought of you as childishly 'playing around' with your speaker builds;))? Well, this last week I've been doing this myself while my ears are in a half decent condition and driving myself up the bloody wall! The main speakers I use have replacement bass-mid drivers in of the same basic design, manufacturer and spec, just ten years later in manufacture after some tweaks were made to them. The result is that the tweeter levels were all over the shop with these newer drivers and after nearly taking my remaining fillings out on a couple of much loved mid 80's Siouxsie albums, I've been gradually taming them. if I didn't have two other 'known' speakers here to use as a generic reference point, I'd not have known what the hell to do.

Anyway, a shame I can't get to hear those single-unit Fane speakers, as I reckon they'd be the dogs doo-dahs for the likes of me and the stuff I still play when I have the chance (alone ;) ).

I read an interesting article the other day too, about dispersion in 12" drivers not being anything like as bad in practise as theory would predict. This was concerning two ways of course, but it seems it's well possible and possibly a dead art today, as a mid driver would be automatically used, despite modern tweeters reaching much lower than they used to. not sure why concentric cones as yours haven't been looked at again these days - I mean the Tannoy and KEF Q way of doing it gives many problems...

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by ed » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:22 pm

DSJR wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:49 pm
not sure why concentric cones as yours haven't been looked at again these days - I mean the Tannoy and KEF Q way of doing it gives many problems...
more things in heaven and earth etc...

they are being looked at, cube audio F10 is a good example
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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Cressy Snr » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:56 pm

ed wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:22 pm
DSJR wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:49 pm
not sure why concentric cones as yours haven't been looked at again these days - I mean the Tannoy and KEF Q way of doing it gives many problems...
more things in heaven and earth etc...

they are being looked at, cube audio F10 is a good example
Three whizzers on this one :D
http://6moons.com/audioreviews2/cubeaudio2/1.html

Dave,
Best way to tame your treble would be to attenuate too much, in the first instance, then gradually increase treble level until your ears complain then back off slightly.

I don't have that issue now, as there's no adjustment possible anyway and no crossover to worry about either.

You need to hear a big full-ranger in a large sealed box. Might be the last speaker you'll want.

If you want to avoid horns, transmission lines or ports then 12 inches is probably the minimum diameter for a bewhizzered full ranger of the high efficiency pro type in a sealed box, if you want at least half way decent bass levels that is.

The Cube Audio (read very expensive) ten inch triple whizzer FR driver is less efficient and will probably give more low bass level in a sealed box, but those drivers are WAY beyond my means I'm afraid.

I have a 15 inch Fane, twin whizzer, full-range driver to build into a big sealed box. That should be very interesting. :)

Big (12" and over) FR drivers in large sealed boxes are ripe for revival. They're coming. :wink:
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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by chris661 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:37 pm

IME, if the treble is difficult to integrate (ie, sometimes it takes your head off, other times it's okay), there's a narrow peak there that's only being excited by some music. When something does hit it, you immediately notice. Otherwise, you'd never know its there.

Probably best to use measurement gear and a notch filter to sort that out.

Chris

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by DSJR » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:17 pm

Nah - this is a pair of fifteen ohm HF1300's initially fed from a tapped radio-type inductor and set far too high in level for the main drivers now being used, so the only way now to reduce said level is an L-pad (I had specialist help in the initial resistor values but it wasn't enough). Interesting psycho-effect here is that reducing the highs doesn't so far make the speakers sound 'dull' or more laid back, but actually brings the bass and mids out better, if you see what I mean. I keep these speakers for sentimental reasons as I sold them in 1974 to their first owner - and remember opening the boxes in the shop to check the grain in the veneers, which were quite nice once ;) So many of my favourite mid 70's albums were heard first on this pair of boxes and driven usually by the very same amps I now have, albeit with much better cabling ;)

The only thing that would really displace them is a pair of JBL's similar to the 4412C recently sold on AOS - and it's on the bucket list depending on my situation in a few years' time...

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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Cressy Snr » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:38 pm

Had the Fanes on an outing to Steve's place today.
They went down reasonably well. :)
The bacon butties and toasted scones went down really well. :mrgreen:
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Re: Fane 12-250TC Retro Speaker.

Post by Cressy Snr » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:48 pm

I've been pursuaded to bring them to Owston, so let's see what happens.
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