Streaming advice needed.

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Neal
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Re: Streaming advice needed.

Post by Neal » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:29 pm

Ant wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:16 am
This is why I just use the mac mini and iTunes into a dac. Just leave the mac switched on and play stuff. I dont understand how it all works. The old system used an sb3 and my laptop running lms, the laptop still had to be on for the sb to work and I had to run a wired connection to the router from both the laptop and sb to stop it dropping out. It still buffered when someone went on the phone or tablet. It was a pain in the arse.
I know that it's the future, and the sb system was pretty agricultural compared to whats out there now, but to me it all seems like it can still be a complete pain in the arse.

Presumably you still need a pc of some sort to run the server software, a storage device the server software can access for the music, and a user device to control it.

Isnt that what the mac and iTunes do?

Or is all the above oversimplification?

It genuinely puzzles me, probably because I havent a clue how it all works
Ant, essentially you can do the same with a Pi, it's a mini computer running an audio software engine with either a local or remote data store. The nice bit is you can incorporate a top hat DAC with the Pi to have a neat all in one player, therre's quite of options available now. You can also add a screen and keyboard if you like or control it remotely with a tablet....very good sound quality for very little money.
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Re: Streaming advice needed.

Post by ed » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:44 pm

Neal wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:22 pm
Can't see how LMS is falling behind, it's still being developed, there's a great community behind it. Latest beta was released a few days ago. Max2play incorporates picoreplayer and gives you way more options for tweaking the o/p than the old Touch ever did. I feed the oversampled Pi output into a TDA1541a DAC and its sounds just great but each to his own I guess.....
This is why I was questioning the statement Neal. I've tried but I can't see any improvement in my setup by adopting any newer tech at the moment. For instance, where is the improvement in Max2play over my beaglebone/debian running squeezelite into a behringer dac....I control it from the tablet/netbook and it is served from LMS on the NAS, which is still supported. The SB3 runs into a AH-Lite DAC and is controlled by the handset or the tablet/netbook.

I had intended to hook either player to a new soekris DAC. I was a little shaken by the transport protocol which is dictated by the NAS and forces other parts of my network to be out of date, but I think lifes too short to worry about that.....so as I don't want anything more than streamed audio from the NAS and internet radio from LMS I really don't think all this talk of Jplay and Roon and recent kids on the block will be of much benefit to me at the moment.....

I'm happy for someone to tell me I've misunderstood...
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Re: Streaming advice needed.

Post by simon » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:30 pm

I've done a little reading, but I'm not sure I'm enticed away from LMS yet either ed.

Accepting for a moment that Roon sounds better than LMS, the cost of investment is:
$119 per year (or $499 lifetime) - this buys the engine, or core as Roon call it.
New server. Roon recommend an i3 or i5 with 4MB RAM and a SSD HD to run the database on.
Players. Roon supports Squeezeboxes, but not Squeezelite so it doesn't look like RPis/embedded is supported. I haven't sussed yet what you can use but it looks like more outlay. Interestingly HiFiBerry is supported, and they plug in to a Pi so I don't know what makes it compatible and what doesn't.

Looks like quite a lot of outlay to try it.

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Re: Streaming advice needed.

Post by ed » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:58 pm

simon wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:30 pm
I've done a little reading, but I'm not sure I'm enticed away from LMS yet either ed.

Accepting for a moment that Roon sounds better than LMS,
this is exactly the bit that needs explaining to me before I think about changing stuff. I'm not sure how one piece of software can send bits down the network any better than another piece of software. Sure they may have different GUIs but buffering and sending/packaging bits should be the same for all of them...
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Re: Streaming advice needed.

Post by Neal » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:09 pm

Yup, that's the point LMS doesn't have a sound (although it can convert formats on the fly), it's the end point device that has a 'sound' in as much you can tweak the s/w settings to change the perceived presentation. I said earlier max2play had piecoreplayer embedded actually it is squeezelite, soz, the parameters for tweaking filters etc are the same though.
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Re: Streaming advice needed.

Post by simon » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:26 pm

simon wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:30 pm
Interestingly HiFiBerry is supported, and they plug in to a Pi so I don't know what makes it compatible and what doesn't.
Roon Bridge. It extends Roon on to Linux (and Win and Mac) so RPis and similar can be used.

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Re: Streaming advice needed.

Post by Ray P » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:57 am

ed wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:58 pm
this is exactly the bit that needs explaining to me before I think about changing stuff...
That's the thing, I can't explain it. Everything I know about IT tells me that bits are bits are bits but, I can hear differences between different 'bit perfect' software players (via the same DAC and using the same music library/transport solution)? All I can sugest is to trial different players.

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Re: Streaming advice needed.

Post by ed » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:51 pm

Ray P wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:57 am
ed wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:58 pm
this is exactly the bit that needs explaining to me before I think about changing stuff...
That's the thing, I can't explain it. Everything I know about IT tells me that bits are bits are bits but, I can hear differences between different 'bit perfect' software players (via the same DAC and using the same music library/transport solution)? All I can sugest is to trial different players.
I wasn't talking about the player Ray, I was only talking about the server. But as I said in my earlier post then different players may dictate a different server, but that's not playing fair and I won't be changing my server just so that I can 'TRY' a different player....I think Simon already highlighted the possible costs of such folly. :D
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Re: Streaming advice needed.

Post by Ray P » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:20 pm

Yes Ed, I corrected my generalisation about LMS earlier; sorry if we're talking at cross purposes.

The 'servers', Roon, AssetUPnP, Minimserver, etc. needed to try some of these different players (Roon, JPlay, HQPlayer, etc) are available with free trials so no commitment, other than some of your time, is required to evaluate them.

BTW Rune and Volumio are essentially branches from the same original development and they are (or were?) very similar - apparently there was a 'disagreement' between the developers and each went their own way.

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Re: Streaming advice needed.

Post by ed » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:37 pm

I think we're going round in circles Ray.

As I'm not prepared to fork out(free trial or not) for a new server at the moment, simply because it won't improve on my existing server, I wont be able to sample the benefits of a new player.

I think I'm now aware that I can probably update the player software sometime in the future for something that will be compatible with LMS, but until then I think the best upgrade for me will be to the soekris DAC.

As I see it a lot of the complete solutions revolve around the subscription services, again, something I don't want at the moment.

I've just re-read the post and it makes me sound like an ingrate.....It wasn't intended Ray, I do appreciate your input to this, and I also apologise for hijacking the thread
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Re: Streaming advice needed.

Post by Ray P » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:43 pm

Fair enough Ed.

I'm about to assemble my own Soekris DAC and will post some updates on progress and listening shortly.

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Re: Streaming advice needed.

Post by RushPCB » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:12 am

The mac mini on the optical output would useful.

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Re: Streaming advice needed.

Post by The Stratmangler » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:16 pm

This is really for Ed's perusal, but anybody using Squeezebox might be interested.
I recently purchased a RasPi, installed piCorePlayer on it, and now use that to run LMS.
It's a revelation.
I have mounted the NAS drive as a repository, and turned off the NAS installed LMS.
It is slick, extremely quick, and very stable.
Access is the same, either from a web browser, or a control app on a Smartphone.

I have Spotty (new Spotify app) running faultlessly. and early this afternoon I enabled a 3rd party app for Radio Paradise, to play the FLAC stream.
It sounds unbelievably good.
BBC iPlayer radio sounds very good too.
Chris :happy3:

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Re: Streaming advice needed.

Post by ed » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:24 am

Hi Chris

I'm not 100% sure what you're saying here.....

are you running LMS and the embedded squeezelite(installed with picoreplayer) both on the Pi?
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Re: Streaming advice needed.

Post by The Stratmangler » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:58 am

Hi Ed

I have piCorePlayer on the RasPi, so yes, it does have LMS and Squeezelite on it.
I turn the Squeezelite off because I don't use it, and I don't want the device to appear on the control interface on my Smartphone.

What prompted the shift to using the Pi for server duties is tied up with Spotify changing their methods of delivery - the access via www.mysqueezebox.com no longer works, and the rewritten Spotify app in LMS (Spotty) doesn't work on the Zyxel NAS boxes because of the processor used in them.

So I had no option but to run server on a different device.
I used a Windows machine as a stop gap, but I ultimately wanted to get back to using something with very low power requirements.

Side benefits of using the Pi to run LMS is that the LMS version is more up to date (I'm currently on LMS 7.9.1), and that things respond much more quickly than the Zyxel NAS ever did.

There was always a lag on the Zyxel, and if I did a search on the server I could start the search, go make a cup of tea, return to where I was, and, if I was lucky, the search would be near to being completed.
I do the same thing now, and the search is done in seconds. I still get up and go make a cup of tea when needed, but I now have whatever it is I want to play cued up and ready to go for my return.

The Radio Paradise plugin on LMS is something that only appears on recent versions of LMS. The plugin only appeared a couple of days ago.
Radio Paradise sounds really good if you use the 320kbps AAC streams http://37.130.228.60/aac-320.m3u , but it sounds even better using the FLAC stream

Overall I'm really pleased with the changes and benefits brought about by moving LMS off the NAS box and onto the RasPi.
Chris :happy3:

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