Resistors

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IslandPink
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#31 Re: Resistors

Post by IslandPink »

No, I wouldn't say it's a case of masking. You should get a ribbon tweeter in your system, then you can really hear what's going on !
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Nick
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#32 Re: Resistors

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IslandPink wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 5:52 pm No, I wouldn't say it's a case of masking. You should get a ribbon tweeter in your system, then you can really hear what's going on !
Maybe. I do have a pair of speakers available with ribbons. Normally use them at shows.
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#33 Re: Resistors

Post by izzy wizzy »

Placed my order so will get the smallest cap value right and have Kiwame and Takman carbon films and Takman metal films on the way to see what's up with these things. They're not that expensive to have to compare. Tried direct coupling on one channel but it wasn't conclusive through headphones with mono signal so ordered some Mills to enable that to happen properly; elevates the 2nd stage.
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#34 Re: Resistors

Post by Greg »

I expect that with your choice of components, you’ll get a major improvement to your sound. Let us know how you get on.

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#35 Re: Resistors

Post by izzy wizzy »

Although this started off as a resistor sound thread, it diverted to an RIAA EQ one for now.

circuit is close but not exactly this; concentrating only on the EQ bit

Image


Below is a sim of where I was at. I had this idea that after being mentally scarred by the "high definition" approach inherited from my ARC clones (parallel every cap with another) I swore never to parallel caps again and maybe wrongly, that applied in the RIAA EQ. So with values close enough I thought, got it within a 0.3dB window 20 to 20k.

For some reason, the screen grabs are dark but can be seen better once clicked on.

EQ-a.jpg

It looks all over the place but the scale on the left is 0.4dB top to bottom. If the small EQ cap is paralleled with an extra 1.2nF taking it from from 33n to 34.2n I would also have to change the series resistor as well from 14.45k to 13.8k. That's two changes at once but kept with metal film albiet it a new Takman metal film vs the things that were in there; the same type at least. That resulted in the blue sim curve below.

EQ-b.jpg

Was a bit surprised by the result. Very hard to describe but best to say, it pulled it all together better as a whole especially on more percussive instruments like piano and harpsichord. There goes a preconception I've hung on to for a long time. I guess lesson is chose the places where parallel components work for you and don't sprinkle them everywhere willy nilly. I suspect some of the nicer sound came from the resistor itself but the overall improvement was from it being closer to flat.

So then changed the HF series resistor from 3.2k to 3.18k which removed that bump to sim it as the green trace. That bump is 0.02dB. totally inaudible of course. It does however span many octaves. This is where things can get tricky. The sound before the change I thought more impressive but after, more natural. Again, it brings things together better over a wider range. Also benefitting from the better component. The overall effect of the change was subtle but also surprising.
Last edited by izzy wizzy on Fri May 08, 2020 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#36 Re: Resistors

Post by Mike H »

IslandPink wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 12:08 am I purged the last metals films ( Holco's ) from my phono amp after JC advised me to do it, and I haven't regretted it.
For what it's worth, I find MF too "harsh", and prefer carbon (film or composite). However thick film resistors are OK, at least the 1 Watt SMD ones (style 2512) from RS, by RS Pro.
 
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#37 Re: Resistors

Post by izzy wizzy »

Nick wrote: Sun May 03, 2020 5:38 pm I agree with you Mark about resistors and HF crud, but I am personally unsure if the resistor is the cause, or if "softer" types are just masking what is there already, or preventing it causing problems later in the chain. Somewhere between warm and edgy is clarity.
With this post burning in my thoughts for a week, I went into round 1 of resistor comparisons today. That last comment being particularly upper most in my mind.

I was able to put a switch in to go between the 13.8k/3.18k combo with two types of resistors, on the fly with power on. Round 1 was between the Takman metal film and carbon film. First though, I like the Takman metal film better than the ordinary metal films I was using; more refined sounding.

I liked the carbon over the metal. They brought things together more over the whole range. Timing was better as was articulation of lyrics which I was surprised by. The carbons weren't masking things although at first, it sounded as though they were as the top wasn't as present; as forward or prominent. But listening further, there was more detail and tonal shading of all instruments and voices. There were more moments where the illusion of some kind of reality crept through which are those times there can be a better connection to what's going on. Hard to explain. The metal films seemed a bit bleached out tonally in comparison; more illuminated from the mids up. So yes, the carbons initially sound warmer but certainly not mushy; more tonally colourful.

Hopefully that made some sense. Round 2 will be Kiwame vs Takman carbon films. The only place I can compare the both types is in the EQ. In other positions, I only have Kiwame to pop in. That might persuade me to like the Kiwame so have to watch out for that possible bias. I'm hoping there's going to be nothing in it.
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#38 Re: Resistors

Post by Mike H »

Oh I like Kiwame ones.

Or at least the ones I bought. :D
 
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#39 Re: Resistors

Post by izzy wizzy »

Round 2 was weird. First I swapped the 2nd stage 330k on the schemo which was 470k IRL unknown metal film for a Kiwame 510k to be a bit more accurate on the EQ. I liked this result a lot.

While playing a solo harpsichord piece, swapped in the Kiwame EQ resistors. I can swap these using the switches without getting out of my seat. Didn't think much had changed. Playing a jazzy piece; same. Not much happened but with both, was aware of something a bit strange. Playing a large orchestral piece, the swap to the Kiwame lost the brooding menace of a large orchestra. The difference on a big orchestral number was quite apparent but on smaller music, not so much.

So record after record went by with the same effect. Although the sound didn't change much nor the actual impact or dynamics, something odd was going on when going to the Kiwame. Then noticed when the Kiwame was in circuit, each instrument played in its own acoustic so instruments would pop up in their own space but they were all seperate from each other while with the Takmans, there was a huge space in the end of the room that all the instruments were in or popping up in. And that led to the Takmans conveying the scale of the event better with everyone playing in the same space. Very hard to explain.

The other Kiwames were for the power supply decoupling which are ordinary metal films and the 4P1L tail resistor in the power amp. So far Takman carbon films are winning but I have no more. I think the Kiwame will do well in the power supply .... hopefully.
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#40 Re: Resistors

Post by IslandPink »

Good work - thanks !
Must lodge in memory for future reference.
Funny how some components can affect such subtle things that are hard to describe.
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#41 Re: Resistors

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Very interesting! :D

I am reminded, tho not exactly the same, of playing Led Zeppelin 4, a record I bought off of Richard Branson way back when he was mail ordering out of his bedroom at his parent's house, possibly :D , I mean like 1972 or something, anyway much later playing it again after a long lay-off I accused this record of being damaged by eailer playings, due to badly set up turntables and/or carts (and before that, record players even :shock: ), cos it sounded harsh like it had groove wear damage. Much later I got around to buying the CD. Sounded the exact same! :shock: Ah so, there's more going on here! Much later again, when I got better equipment, this harshness eventually resolved itself as lots and lots (and LOTS) of very lively jangly guitar strings, which on "lesser" equipment had just sounded like a horrible mess. Again was all down to choice of passives basically.

Image
 
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#42 Re: Resistors

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The ability to decongest the music is one of the benefits of getting the phono to perform better. Obvs I know but it is the deciphering of what has been in the past a mess into something intelligible. I'm finding the Hana a revellation in that area and thought many records damaged, distorted etc but not so. I've never owned a cartridge that has tracked so well at the end of sides or throughout on so many discs. Maybe it's just a great match in the Triplanar.

I've read so much about resistor comparisons but never to where they are used. Every adjective has been used to describe both Takmans and the Kiwame. Without context, it's pretty meaningless. Not saying what I've done is definitive. The first stage and EQ passives experience a signal unlike any other in the system; 40dB difference (roughly) between highs and lows. My preferences related to a pentode front end, silver mica in the EQ and no doubt what follows.

From what I heard, I think there's a place for all 3 of the types I tried depending on the associated bits n bobs. They are all excellent depending on what you're after.
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#43 Re: Resistors

Post by izzy wizzy »

Been playing with ht decoupling resistor changes. For a giggle, here's the changeover setup.

IMG_20200519_211026485_compress14.jpg

Swaps the metal film decouplers for the Kiwame, all stages at once while on, but need to mute as there's a bit of a thump.

The Kiwame are very good here in place of the MF. Same detail as far as I can make out but without the highlighting and much better tonally. Again, everything seems more of a whole rather than the highs given a special lift. Sure it makes cymbals stand out but seperate from the rest while the Kiwames make it whole without blending. I'm trying to say they aren't mushy or glossing over things.

Of course I'm wondering what something else would do but not sure I can be bothered for now.

Have a few more to try in other positions. There's only one metal film left now; the decoupler to the screen.
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#44 Re: Resistors

Post by izzy wizzy »

Put the 1st stage Kiwame decoupler resistors in permanently but left the switch in for 2nd stage to see if on a "sort of diff stage" if there was a difference. I couldn't reliably tell which I guess most if not everything I heard was the first stage. Might also mean it is working properly as a diff amp. A time ago couldn't tell the difference between a Gary Pimm css in the diff stage tail. Probably because the signal is so small, the compliance of the ccs isn't being tested.

Today had switches in the screen decoupler choosing between Kiwame and a roderstein mk4; highly regarded back in the day. The roderstein seemed quite well behaved compared to the cheap metal films but the Kiwame was more sophisticated sounding with similar differences as before.

Compiling an order to try some more of this kind of thing in the line and power amps. But for now, I'm very pleased with the results in the phono.
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#45 Re: Resistors

Post by simon »

Fascinating stuff Stephen, please keep it coming
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